I’ve heard somewhere that Mas Oyama was actually defeated once or twice during his lifetime. Who defeated him and how?
a bull with its horn
What do you mean by “defeated”? That is quite a strong word.
What we know is that he has been deceased for long.
What comes to bull thing is that he “fought” those animals and chopped off a horn or two,there is also film footage of him crushing a single horn.
I know Jon Bluming who used to be his student amusingly claims in one of his interviews how Oyama used to,nearly,get “heart attacks” from watching Bluming´s unique display of character. 
Jon Blumming’s statements concerning Oyama are questionable in my book and therefore I take what he says with a grain of salt.
Oyama’s stories are probably flavored by myth and legend, but Blumming’s story of Oyama is flavored by politics. I personally put Oyama in the category of “serious martial art badarse” and innovator in the area of cross training, but make a policy not to swallow the Oyama partyline hook, line, and sinker.
I know that by Oyama’s own admission, he got knocked on his butt by a Thai Boxer nicknamed “Black (Mamba or Cobra)” in rd. 1 of a fight, but then according to his story he got up and knocked the MT guy out.
Oyama had teachers (some unitl fairly late in his martial development), so he probably recognized these men as his his senior in one way, shape, or form.
Once Oyama was really beaten by a bull. I don’t know how severely, but he was stabbed somewhere by the bull’s horn.
lol.Yeah.
Bluming is a serious but quite funny guy if his interviews hold any water.
Wasn’t it Svinth who said Bluming was the “quintessential streetfighter”? I respect his talent, and he’s tough, but I also take many of the things he says with a grain of salt. That street-tough attitude of his (honestly come by) colors much of his personal philosophy and politics. I still like him, though. He’s a good martial artist.
Some people claimed that Mas Oyama was soundly defeated by a tai chi master, I think Yang Cheng-fu style, and I think it happened in Taiwan. However, I have also heard that the fight never happened, although it almost did. Supposedly, once Oyama looked into the Tai Chi guys eyes, he felt that he would lose if he fought, so he changed his mind and decided against going through with the fight. I have a hard time believing that Oyama would have been afraid to fight anybody though.
True, there is no denying that Bluming is a badarse as well. I just don’t get why he wore a Kyokushin-kai patch, Oyama’s hombu organzation, on his gi and always mentioned his rank under Oyama, and then once Oyama died Bluming hated Oyama and Kyokushin karate. WTF?
Oyama trained under highly respected instructors throughout his life, so I guess there is more to him than the nay-sayers would admit.
Oyama was not the only talented martial artist to receive criticism by Bluming.
On the flipside, Bluming was not the only talented martial artist to criticize Oyama.
no…
To have been really defeated, you have to have actually fought. I don’t think Oyama ever had any serious competitive fights in his life. Who did he ever fight? Where was it documented? Mostly people just tell stories of how he killed bulls and beat up all his students one after the other in sparring matches (yeah, like any lowly peon student in his organization would really try to beat him:rolleyes: ). Oyama was the organizer, politician, and businessman of Kyokushin. Fellow founder of Kyokushinkai, Kurosaki Kenji was the one who actually fought serious matches. Hell, he even went to Thailand to test his karate skills against thai fighters. He also seemed much more humble and soft spoken than Oyama. I respect him more.
Dragonzrage,
I respectfully disagree. Oyama fought in the venues available at the time and innovated new fighting formats when he became disillusioned with what was available. People forget that Oyama already was beyond competition age when he invented Kyokushin. I have never heard of anybody sharing in the credit for creating kyokushin, that is a new one to me.
Karate training and fighting: He began to stand out during his Shotokan days. He had a reputation for being a tough guy. He started complaining about the lack of sparring of any type in Funakoshi’s organization at this period. He left Shotokan to join Japanese Goju. Why? Because Japanese goju had just implemented a form of sparring based loosely on kendo and judo rules altered to suit karate, th first of its kind in Japan. He excelled in this format (All-Japan champion in the first post war tournament) but grew disatisfied with the “point scoring” so he invented his own format of “jiyu kumite” when he opened his own organization, which was contiuous no pads full contact free sparring with face punches allowed (they weren’t banned until later). He was in his mid/late thirties when he formed Kyokushin. Prior to that he had competed in any format available and now that he had his independence he took his skills on the road. He went to SE Asia, looking to train and fight. He went to Europe, looking to train and fight. He uses his students in his 100 man kumite (nothing but a demo) because it isn’t easy to gather 100 people willing to throw down, but he has had open calls for fighters. There was at least one open challenge by Shigeru Oyama, at the time still in the Kyokushin-kai, wherein he offered to fight any 100 men who showed up (and the event was in NY). S. Oyama defeated all comers and hopped in his car drove to another seminar and did it all again within a ridiculously short peiod of time (can’t recall exact time frame, it was really short like a weekend or a week).
Judo training and competition: He had a 4th degree BB from the Kodokan, and apparently earned all of his points in randori competition.
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu training: During the war years, apparently Oyama’s name appears frequently in the class registry of Kondo Sensei, a student of Takeda. As an operative in Japan’s wartime intelligence community, Oyama was encouraged to study under Kondo.
Shootwrestling training: Oyama was a student of Antonio Inoki, who was a student of Lou Thesz, same lineage as Takada, Sakuraba, and American Catch instructor Tony Cecchine (sp.?).
Taiki-ken training: Oyama explored “internal theories” by becoming a student of this Japanese school of yiquan.
Just like the Gracies were only fighting in Brazil in the 50’s, MT fighters were only fighting in Thailand in the 50’s, etc. Oyama fought in the toughest venues available at his time, and was frustrated by their limitations. Maybe these venues were not all hardcore, but he didn’t hide from contact. He didn’t hide from competition, people just didn’t globetrot for minor sporting competition, unless they were rich. Oyama wasn’t rich, but he did the best that he could in the era before the modern passenger jet and countless fighting formats for style vs. style testing.
Is he the greatest? NO.
Was he a paper tiger? I doubt it. He had his foot run through with a katana during a demo gone wrong, and merely wrapped it up and continued on like he had nicked his little toe. He might have felt it, but he was too proud to admit the pain of the injury.
His background is very respectable for the time period of his career and the location where he lived. He did what he did in a period when there was no money in it, no fame in it, and basically no venue for it. Rather than dwell on the shortcomings of a career that occured before the sport of MMA had “arrived”, note the fact that he crosstrained and blended ancient and modern training practices in a manner that would not be common for quite a few decades.
Nobody was talking trash in his face while he was alive, other than Emperado. Then again, your next question might be, “who has Emperado fought?” I can only reply “very tough men that never happened to step in an octagon or ring”. They do exist.
Oyama was a promotion machine and unfortunately this has soured enough people to completely overlook everything else he might have had to offer.
To dismiss him as a martial arts ‘fraud’ is as biased a perspective as that coming from people who would have you believe he was invincible.
Oyama used to use a bull in his demo. I have seen where he lobbed off a horn but only in stills. never heard that he took a hit from the bull.
What I found so amazing about him was his statement in his books the Tai Chi was a set of calastenics based on an ancient fighting art, whose fighting techniques were long lost in time.
Originally posted by Stranger
Shootwrestling training: Oyama was a student of Antonio Inoki, who was a student of Lou Thesz, same lineage as Takada, Sakuraba, and American Catch instructor Tony Cecchine (sp.?).
Tony Cecchine, yes. Tony actually received most of his instruction from the catch wrestler Stanley Radawan. He had a close relationship with Lou Thesz during Thesz’s later days, and trained with him occasionally, like he trained with numerous other grapplers. Inasmuch as lineage can be applied to non-oriental styles, though, I wouldn’t call him of Thesz’s “lineage”.
Not that any of this has any relevance to Oyama, of course. Just FYI.
real effort
Hi Stranger,
Well put indeed - certainly did your research on this one. Good job! Thanks for sharing these occurances and info!
Fatherdog,
You would know way more about catch “lineage” than me, so I defer to you.
I thought it went Tragos>Thesz>Inoki>Takada>Sakuraba (the last three are not catchwrestlers, rather shootwrestlers that incorporate elements of catch).
Inoki swapped grappling knowledge for striking knowledge with Oyama.
Wouldn’t this be a lineage of sorts?
Where do you live in NJ? Are you training catch in NJ? Where?
Q
Originally posted by Stranger
I thought it went Tragos>Thesz>Inoki>Takada>Sakuraba (the last three are not catchwrestlers, rather shootwrestlers that incorporate elements of catch).
Tragos did train Thesz, but Inoki was actually trained by Karl Gotch. Most shootwrestling training is based on training from Karl Gotch. Both Gotch and Thesz were considered “Gods of Pro Wrestling” in Japan, but Gotch was the one who did most of the training of Japanese pro wrestlers. There is some argument regarding the extent to which Gotch was a shooter or a pure worker, but regardless of one’s opinion on this, the rules of original shootwrestling (standing the fighters up after 60 seconds on the ground) greatly affected shootwrestling’s style of groundwork, to the point that it is very different from authentic Catch, despite their common origins.
Sakuraba and Takada were both originally professional wrestlers, with shootwrestling training from Inoki and Gotch. Sakuraba also brings a history of college and high school wrestling to the table.
Wouldn’t this be a lineage of sorts?
Lineage is always a fuzzy concept applied to American Catch, since so many catch wrestlers trained with many different coaches. The concept of a single sifu wasn’t really there. Takada and Sakuraba could be said to be of the Gotch lineage, in a way.
Where do you live in NJ? Are you training catch in NJ? Where?
I live in Lambertville, work in Princeton, and train Catch in Elizabeth, at the OpenMat gym at the Bayside Academy of Martial Arts with Glenn Ortiz and Eddy Rolon.
Oyama was definitely not a fraud. But, given the time, he did what he could to promote martial arts, kyokushinkai, and full contact events. I’m sure had he been alive and in his prime now, he would love to it down in the octagon. Keep in mind that we’re living in the golden age of martial arts, where one can study any school of fighting, from the best masters, anywhere in the world. Often we can even get an undestanding of fighting concepts through the internet, video, and literature. In Oyama’s days, people actually had to save money, travel, and seek out instruction. I do think that Oyama’s powers are inflated. But, like someone above said, no one said that to his face and been turned down for a match. I read Oyama’s autobiography on the same weekend as I read Funakoshi’s autobiography. What a contrast in these two men’s philosophies on combat. As for Oyama’s bull killing, I find that concept disgusting. A friend of mine showed me a video of Oyama killing a sick bull marked for slaughter. This bull must have weighed less than Oyama (who was a big guy), hardly fought back, and just took the brutal punishment until he died. Honestly, I think Oyama’s 100men kumite would have been harder.
MA fanatic
Fatherdog,
Thanks for clearing that up. I never knew that Gotch worked outside of the circle of fighters that would begin the Pancrase cicuit.
Maybe the native influence of judo, Victor Koga’s SAMBO, and the incorporation of various striking arts led to the “30 seconds only on the ground” rule of early Japanese shoot. I don’t know. I’m just glad that they spend more time on the ground now days, than they did in the early days of the sport. (more time= less referee interference= more reality)
As a NJ resident, I have to keep up on the martial arts scene, particularly things as cool as a catch school.
tuff enuff
There is no doubt that Oyama was a tough guy. The truth about his “colorful” history is another thing. Someone mentioned that he left Shotokan because of their lack of hard sparring. I don’t know how you could prove that, but it’s obvious he left for some reason. Maybe he didn’t like Shotokans training methodology, but I doubt it was because of lack of hard sparring. Shotokan guys have always free-fought pretty hard!
As far as Yamaguchi’s Japanese Goju being a style more conducive to his sensibilities. I can’t say for sure either. Maybe he wanted the yang to Shotokan’s yin. I was always under the impression that both had more yang than yin. He also studied Chinese “Kempo”. How Chinese is that term? Hmmm…
Now folks, noted unbiased historians like Robert Smith, have written that Oyama was a showman first and foremost. He wanted notariety for his “style”. The bullfights (with little half-grown, Japanese bulls) were rigged. He had someone cut almost through the horns so that he wouldn’t have any prob “chopping” them off. Even with this preparation he was still gored badly by one of these “rigged” bulls. His hundreds of undefeated challenge matches could not be found in documentation anywhere, and no witnesses could corraborate his claims. As for 100-man kumite, that does sound rough. What I want to know is why? Were his opponents gonna fight him all out? They were his students. They definitely wouldn’t have anything to lose by not going all out. After all, Oyamas and the other BB’s successes with this only validated the students reasons for picking Kyokushinkai.
I think you guys are right when you say these things about Bluming and Mas’ relationship. I guess they had a falling out. That happens a lot in Japan and Okinawa. I guess it’s the “student surpassing the master type thing”. I think Bluming sadi that Oyama was promoting people to BB when they weren’t deserving. $$$$$$$!!! Bluming has stated that he “cried like a baby when Mas died”, and that he always thought of him as a “father that he was deptly indebted to for giving him the gift of karate”. If Oyama’s MAs credentials seem incredible or less than credible, it is well known that Bluming was and still is a force of nature. He is a better budoka to many of those who knew both.
I think Bluming is just brutally honest. He knew the real Mas Oyama, not the mythic character that we all read about. Mas Oyama was a pioneer in hard Japanese sport karate. It should be noted that he was basically equivalent to the rest of the pro “wrasslers” out there. Many of his “challenge” matches were done in a wrestling, WWE, sort of way. Formidable yes, but not as much he led people to believe.
Kyokushinkai is the epitome of Goho (HARD) fighting. Even moreso that GOju Ryu. Really hard training leads to easy injury. K1 was invented to test Kyokushins efficacy as a ring sport. As many can guess a lot of the champs are not Kyokushin, but Muay Thai and kickboxing. As a self-defense art it is lacking intent and as ring-sport it is mediocre in various venues (including NHB). Kyokushin is the antithesis, in many ways, to the traditional fighting principles of Okinawa and China, and even the Juho arts of Japan, like Judo. You can go hard in a soft art, but not in an external art. Shaolin training methodology, the foundation for NahaTe and ShuriTe, is right on point. As a style Oyama’s style is kinda’ hope fighting. Just an opinion.
BTW, I saw a Hector/Manny response on this thread. Does that make sense to any lurking e-budo types?
It was my understanding, based on an article by Nakayama. that Funakoshi’s first major karate class that he taught in Japan consisted of everybody doing 500 punches on the makiwara. Those who returned for the second class had passed the test of heart. Subsequent classes were nothing but kata. Those who remained had passed the test of patience. One step was only brought into the program because Funakoshi felt that he had to make allowances for the Japanese students’ desire to spar. Oyama angrily referred to Shotokan as more an ettiquette and culture class than a fighting martial art and left. As I said before, Gogen “the Cat” Yamaguchi of Japanese Goju fame created the first rules for unchoreographed competition sparring in Japan. He had a background in kendo and simply modified the existing competition rules of that sport to suit karate. This was the lure that brought Oyama to the Japanese Goju camp, no mystical quest to balance his yin and yang (Oyama’s fascination with internal power development had not yet reallybegun at this point). He wanted to compete, and the Japanese Goju schools were breaking ground in that area. When he wanted to see the level of competition increase in intensity, he left Japanese Goju and formed his own school with sparring rules that more reflected his personal traiing approach.
Now what I am writing aboutin these threads is JAPANESE karate. I’m not saying that Funakoshi didn’t know more than he taught. He was looking to market his program as a staple in Japanese physical education, building the body and mind, and the original Japanese classes apparently contained no sparring as a result of this deemphasis on fighting ability.
I have heard the story of “preparing the bull’s horns”. It may very well be true, but personally I wouldn’t fight a bull whether it had horns or not. He may have killed small cattle, but he also killed some really big one’s that were earmarked for slaughter by the beef industry. Beef cattle are huge due to their diet and hormone intake. At least one bull was killed not with a strike, but by snapping its neck. I’ve never tried it, but it sounds difficult.
Allegedly, the fallout between Oyama and Emperado was over the latter’s claim that Oyama prepared bricks for a breaking demo by firing them in a kiln (this makes them brittle and easier to break). Emperado confronted Oyama in mid-demo and snapped one of the bicks in his hands. I’d like to think that if it went to blows that day, it would not have been as disappointing as Cheung v. Boztepe.