Punching fluidity is neurological adaptation. As long as you continue to practice MA and don’t take a break from it during your lifting cycles your performance shouldn’t suffer. If you’re stopping MA and only doing bench press, then no wonder your performance decreases.
The problem is probably not myself as I do the exercises properly, with strict form but it still offers very little carry over to doing a martial art. That is, one with predominantly striking. As the boxing article from top coaches for world class athletes supports this opinion I do not think the problem is me. Where more brute strength is an issue, over technique and proper execution of technique and skills, then I would say that raw strength is important but the goal of kung fu training is not to have to muscle through everything as one can easily meet another that is quite stronger, but another with high martial art skill is not very likely to happen, even if it does, your skill better be trained very, very well!
Garbage. I love the insinuation that the goal of Kung Fu is one thing, as though the goal of other fighting arts isn’t skill.
The boxing coaches listed are from the “old school,” just like “old school” football coaches said weights make you slow and easy to break. The old school also think that 15 miles of road work is how you get in fighting shape (conclusively demonstrated wrong).
Punching fluidity is neurological adaptation. As long as you continue to practice MA and don’t take a break from it during your lifting cycles your performance shouldn’t suffer. If you’re stopping MA and only doing bench press, then no wonder your performance decreases.
This too.
Weights don’t make you slow. The problem is people lifting big and slow. If you focus on accelerating throughout the entire range of motion, it’s not an issue.
Again, sounds like the problem is with you, not with weights.
I was not implying only kung fu had as a goal technique. But often the use of weights are used to develop pure strength, particularily the bench press. Like I said, it definately has an effect on how well you can push stuff but it doesn’t really seem to have any carry over to training your punch. When you punch you only have resistance at the end of the motion, this is not something you can train with weights. A heavy bag is a much better tool to develop a good punch.
And no I did not stop training in kung fu during those periods. I was merely saying that it is possible that bench press does very little to improve punching power. However, if you guys find that it benefits your kung fu practice then by all means, continue to do so. It could be that different styles have differnent ideas of power generating and that is where the confusion is. To each his own but I found it interesting how the age old adage of you need to lift weights to be able to lift weights, or that you cannot increase max lifts through dynamic tension and pushups, seems false in this case. Just an observation that I thought was interesting, but, again, we are all seeking success in whatever art and so if the means do not defeat the ends, then go for it.
Oh yeah, I didn’t mention anything about weights making you slow nor did I say anything against any other art but because this is a kung fu forum, I mention that art in the post to make the point.
You know what’d be really funny…is if after all this defense of weight lifting and arcane physiological knowledge…Merryprankster turned out to be a big fat slob. 
(We do know he spends a lot of time on the computer after all.)
actually, I’m the big fat slob, MP’s ripped.
the only exercises i saw recommended were like cable flies coz they help with hooks. Yes, they’re old school. No, I’m not sure I agree with them, aside from the observation that large, defined muscles and being able to lift more weights don’t have much of an effect on punching power.
I try to do sprint work and distance work for cardio (usually on different days or different parts of the workout); i find the 2 to be synergistic. Sprints help me continuously batter people with combos nonstop. Upping my distance work lately has coincided with some weight loss and it helps keep me going between rounds.
Had my first BJJ class tonite and rolled like 5, 5 min rounds at the end. I’ve been feeling ill the last couple days and mistakenly thought I’d take it easy. Before that I did my lil total body workout, with one set of 10 reps per exercise & medium amount of weight. It went pretty well, my strength on the exercises held up much better than usual. Think I may continue to do this and add more sets and weight slowly.
For the end purpose of increasing punching power, it is necessary to train not only absolute strength but also speed-strength. After all the underlying goal is to improve power.
So as MP said, lifting ballistically would be a necessary part of how a martial artist should train. This along with training absolute strength will increase explosiveness.
There’s a reason why 99.9% of top level:
Boxers
Kickboxers
Judo competitors
MMA Fighters
Wrestlers
Matter of fact, just about every top level sportspeople, LIFT WEIGHTS.
Figure it out guys - it’s not hard.
LOL big mix up between tag play in a sports compared to real life self defence.
It all comes down to time, how much time do you have to practise?
If you’re a pro then you will spend 4-8? hours a day working on forms, bag work, road work, weight training…
If like myself you get 1-2 hours of uninterrupted training a day you may find it difficult to supplement your training. It’s a matter of choice, myself I have no illusions of being a pro fighter but I would like to develop some skill.
LOL big mix up between tag play in a sports compared to real life self defence.
Yup. There’s a big difference between what you do in a kwoon and real life self defence as well.
Everybody has rules, whether its the training hall or a boxing match. Or do you have a lot of knife wounds, concussions, and ball-sac surgery at your gym?
Glad that’s cleared up…
our thai boxing classes are 1.5 hours - we still manage to work in pad work, bagwork, calesthenics, skill work and anaerobic training. Why? It’s all integrated within thai boxing. The same can be said of bjj, wrestling, judo, etc. It’s all in how you train, that’s all.
running and weight training I do on my own outside of class, however we do have a bench and some weights at the school.
so tell me, what’s so real about what you do? So far, in my time working club security, the majority of what I’ve had to use is wrestling and judo… It’s funny how applicable tag sports can be in real life self defense…
Sevenstar, not only is it how you train but what you train. My understanding of Muay Thai is limited, do you train Krabi Krabong? or it’s ring equivalent M.T.? What exactly is the relationship between the two?
As far as I am aware wrestling, judo , bjj have no forms, while a big component of TCC is forms, this may determine your training regime, that, and what you want to get out of your training.
I thought the formula for power was Mass times speed equals power 
aren’t we trying to develop punching,kicking power not how much we can push our opponents around the ring if my body is behind the punch/kick what else is needed.
and how much strength is really needed the fact is every one is different.
if your slow work on speed
if your fast without any power work on using the whole body to punch/kick (Technique)
if your weak work on your strength
again how much strength is really needed? yes I Agree strength is needed, but there is a point in your training when strength is no longer an Issue
Learn to adapt to your opponents strengths/weaknesses! IMO
Well it’s Mass X Accelration = Force but you were close enough to get the cheap cigar, just not the cuban. 
Having said that, people who are into wieght lifting to augment their ma skills go about it diferently than say a body builder. Why? To develop functional strength that is germane to the actual agenda which is ma and not esthetic.
Functional strength has a lot of paths and each individual comes with attributes of there own at the start.
Body builders are about the esthetic. They aren’t about functional strength, they aren’t about ma, they are about cut, ripped, tone and buff and that’s the agenda. Yes, they have methods that can be adapted to a functional strength development model, but a body builder can’t help you with ma any more than you can help him with his esthetic through your ma. They are two ships passing in the night off the radar of each. 
Many martial artists are now getting into functional strength development through the use of devices that work in the ranges of motion that they will employ in their martial art. Kettle bells, Clubs, regular weights with specific exercises and so on.
Also, be careful of diet and the stresses that weight lifting will do to your body. Joint problems, tendonitis et al will need to be addressed as you age and if you are not on a whole body focus program as has been mentioned. NOt just round robin lifting to benefit all your muscle groups, but what you eat, your breathing patterns, your cv strength and endurance, your functional strength and all else required to make you a physical specimen worthy of the envy of your peers and all else (muwhahahahaha…I wish )
Ever wonder why farmers and fishermen are so freaking strong? It is their functional strength that is created by doing what they do. So if you want to increase your strength do it in a fashion that fits your agenda.
Hitting power comes from the formula above. But the approach to having the mass and achieving the acceleration has a lot to do with augmentation and correction of “form” or structure in the fighter.
This is quite oftened referred to as the position of strength versus the position of weakness and has everything to do with correct mechanics in the creation and application of forces be they short powered/long powered or falling powered. These three important powers are required for the ranges of fighting and there are methods that will increase your own posession of them. But the method needs to be sound.
and just because you look good or are good at something doesn’t qualify you as one who has the ability to impart that method. That’s where teaching skills come in and this is all too often overlooked or misrepresented or misperceived.
there are as many skilled people out there who simply are not good teachers as there are unskilled peeps who have the information and the method to disseminate it.
Ultimately, YOU are responsible for the decisions you make, the approaches you take and the effects of the causes you have begun.
Train to your objective.
Don’t get me wrong David I do agree with strength training, Just this thread has been beet to hell I try to make things simple to understand I’m just a simple person why make things harder than they really are! every one does have their own path when I fought shooto in japan I had to train different, I do Taiji now and have learned a new way! so yes train to your own agenda! 
But dealing with some drunk guy in a bar who your not supposed to hurt and being in a life or death situation where you may have to kill/maim or be killed/maimed are a little different now aren’t they?
Apples and oranges really.
you’re splitting haits here Fu.
The guy dealing with the drunk in teh bar is also positioning himself in a place where the situations that arise have the potential of life and death and dealing with that. It’s not about tossing andy capp because he puked on the st louis mirror again.
LEO’s, Doormen, square badges and prison guards as well as nurses, care workers and a few other fields I haven’t mentioned could all do with some martial training and for the most part they do.
What they don’t do is traditional regimens that are doled out in traditional formats. What they do do is compile aggregate scenarios of potential occurences and focus on the attributes and skills required to deal with those situations. Statitically speaking, this alone puts them in a better position to handle life or death situations than an aggregate of martial artists doing form work, light sparring with their peers and youngers etc etc and not dealing with everyday scenarios and those high percentage techs known to be usable in the handling of those scenarios.
Of course this is oppositional to sitting in a horse stance and thinking of a single point of light to improve your positive outlook on life :rolleyes: But then I never did agree with the pseudo psychology concepts that are doled out in what is all too often called martial art, but in reality, isn’t that close to what it calls itself.
But that’s getting back to the whole, you can’t swim if you don’t go in the water and so, I’ll just reiterate, dealing with drunks who’ve had too much is the easy part, but what about the GB with a chunk who wants to waste the DJ cause he’s got a beef? Deal with that and you can count yourself as one of the few who have had actual experience.
drunks are push overs anyway LOL