I know this a contentious dead horse that has been beat to death about a million gazillion times…about 100,00 by me. However, I would like to offer a new perspective.
Basically, I think for so called “external” or “hard” style martial arts training with heavy weights for strength could provide some benefit, provided that it is done in the right way.
However, for an art like Taiji it is all wrong. In order for Taiji to work it is essential that the movement of your joints be unhindered. While lifting heavy weights may not impede flexibilty (ie the ability of the muscle to stretch) it can have an effect on joint articulation.
Every joint in your body can move in a circular fashion some degree. The shoulder and hip joints are especially mobile as they are ball and socket joints.
In order for Taiji to work all joints move be able to move in a concert in a circular continous fashion. If one of the joints is “stuck” or not moving in concert then a point of tension is created which can be exploited by another.
When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is “stuck”. At least one part of the joint “machine” is not working in concert. Even in so called “whole body” exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji. This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.
Hence, Taiji has its own “weight training” methods. These involve using objects that can be moved in a fluid, continous fashion (ie weapons, heavy balls, etc.).
What is the function of the muscles in Taiji? Well mostly I think to provide support to allow the joint “machine” to receive and transmit force.
Not that I have read all Fu-Pow’s posts, but we have chatted somewhere (man, MAP really is such a wussy place; the mods there are so uptight they never take a dump, what a destiny). This is the first really misplaced post of his I recall reading.
Weight training should always be done in a professional way in that it supports your main sport. Always. Amateurs who think they know it all and give advice to others are funny. So, if you’re a n00b, make sure the person you are asking for advice not only knows what he’s doing BUT that he can give YOU advice. Two very different things.
Muscles (or gravity) are responsible for ALL movement that you make. Yes, that means even Wing Chun guys are using MUSCLE when they punch. Sorry, guys, tendons, along with everything else that isn’t muscle, can’t contract.
Lifting weights doesn’t make you tense. You might be tense for a little bit following a workout due to the increased amount of blood in your muscles, but that goes away. This comes from anything requiring great muscular effort and is not specific to lifting weights. Go sprint and you’ll get the same pump in your quads. Throw enough chain punches in a row and your shoulders will fill with blood. OMG THEY’RE STIFF! Better quit MA.
Lifting weights doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll get big muscles. Look at 120lb powerlifters who are stronger than 250lb bodybuilders to prove this point.
Weight lifting doesn’t make you inflexible. In fact, great flexibility WITHOUT strength is a repice for injury.
Trained weight lifters become more in tune with how it feels when muscles contract, and as a result can possibly perform a given motion with LESS tension than someone who has never lifted weights. OMG I JUST TURNED THE TAIJI COMMUNITY ON ITS HEAD WITH THAT ONE.
Decades of research and experiments by sports scientists > your sifu’s knowledge of physiology
Science > you
Look, it’s like this. Trained weight lifters are exactly the same as regular people, except they are more familiar with their bodies, they are probably more flexible, and they can generate way more tension when they want to. Both trained and untrained people can move with the same minimal levels of tension, and as I mentioned before, trained weight lifters are probably capable of less because they will recognize excessive muscle contraction whereas non-trained invididuals might not.
The reason I agree to what is sayed here, Have you have ever tried to push a Master that can root himself, I have muscle bound guys from 5 to 10 people push me and cannot move me
strength/muscle is of no issue to a Taiji Man. I send your energy to the ground.
then I find your root and your gone.
Strength is your Qi. Feeling,Feeling,Feeling If I can sense your intensions through feeling which Really has to be taught by a master. (Because There is Many types of things to feel and the chances of Learning just from relaxing your muscle is very remote) There are many ways of learning to relax but theres many ways to change not only yourself but also make your opponent feel something that really isn’t happenning at all, It becomes Just an Illusion. Weights only take this feeling away! This is my experience.
However, for an art like Taiji it is all wrong. In order for Taiji to work it is essential that the movement of your joints be unhindered.
In what way is the movement of your joints hindered?
While lifting heavy weights may not impede flexibilty (ie the ability of the muscle to stretch) it can have an effect on joint articulation.
Explain this, please. Joint articulation is controlled and performed by: the associated muscles responsible. If lifting properly does not impede flexibility, how can it negatively effect joint articulation.
When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is “stuck”. At least one part of the joint “machine” is not working in concert. Even in so called “whole body” exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji.
How is this an issue? The purpose of strength training is to strengthen the body, not mimic the athletic movement. The end result is that you will benefit from greater strength, explosiveness, etc. in your athletic activity.
This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.
If training is done properly, this does not occur. There have been studies in which olympic weightlifters have been shown to have greater flexibility than any other athlete, except for gymnasts. There is no evidence that shows that strength training will cause a joint to lose range of motion if done properly. Maybe if you go at it mindlessly, but…
What is the function of the muscles in Taiji? Well mostly I think to provide support to allow the joint “machine” to receive and transmit force.
The muscle-tendon structures actively recieve and transmit force, not just support the joint. Muscle pulls on tendon pulls on bone = motion. The joint would basically sit there forever if the muscles were not acting.
“This one time, a 285 pound bodybuilder came into my taiji school, but he was so tense from his bodybuilding, that lil’ old 124 pound me dominated his @ss!..” stories.
To review -
"Lifting weights makes you slow/tense/inflexible/restricted/insensitive etc etc " = WRONG
“Lifting weights makes you stronger/more explosive/have more endurance depending on how it is done” = RIGHT
Christ, you want an example of an athlete who is supremely fit, very strong, LIFTS WEIGHTS, and is EXTREMELY fluid, sensitive, fast and flexible, look at any good boxer.
It cannot move through its fullest range of motion.
Explain this, please. Joint articulation is controlled and performed by: the associated muscles responsible. If lifting properly does not impede flexibility, how can it negatively effect joint articulation.
Actually, I looked up articulation on websters, it just means “a joint.” So articulation isn’t the right word. What I’m getting at is joint mobility.
What is your definition of flexiblity? I would define it as the ability to stretch. Now there are common stretches that stretch out the joint and surrounding muscles in a certain direction. However, when you practice Taiji the joint must be loose and mobile in ALL direction. Practicing Taiji is like stretching and loosening your joints in all the directions they can move.
When you lift weights you use the joints as a fulcrum point. The fulcrum is in one plane of motion. Therefore you are creating tension in one direction and not the other. Eventually this unevenly tightens the joint and doesn’t allow it to move as fluidly and circularily in all directions, which is a prerequisite for good Taiji.
How is this an issue? The purpose of strength training is to strengthen the body, not mimic the athletic movement. The end result is that you will benefit from greater strength, explosiveness, etc. in your athletic activity.
For arts that use “natural” strength then yes (like one that I practice, ie Taiji). There is a start and a stop. You want to be able to stop and then explode off when you start again. However, for Taiji, there is no real beginning and no end. Each move flows into the next. This is dependent on joint mobility or it will not work. You will get “hung up” on some point of tension and your Taiji becomes worthless.
If training is done properly, this does not occur. There have been studies in which olympic weightlifters have been shown to have greater flexibility than any other athlete, except for gymnasts. There is no evidence that shows that strength training will cause a joint to lose range of motion if done properly. Maybe if you go at it mindlessly, but…
Like I said, how are we measuring flexibility? By a stretch in one direction? Or by the ability of the joint to move through its fullest range of motion (and also in concert with all other joints in the body.)
The muscle-tendon structures actively recieve and transmit force, not just support the joint. Muscle pulls on tendon pulls on bone = motion. The joint would basically sit there forever if the muscles were not acting.
True. However, the point of Taiji is to avoid this reception and channel it through the body and into the ground. Force against force is a big no, no in Taiji. If you tighten up as you receive force then you are not doing Taiji anymore.
What relevance does “strength” ie ability to lift objects around over a long time period…have to martial arts? Answer:none.
Speed and explosiveness are much more important. And as far as I know can be developed more from plyometric exercises than from lifting weights to make you “strong.” Plyometrics demands that your muscles work against massive resistance in a short time period.
These kind of things apply to most martial arts. Taiji has a certain type of jin (skill/energy) than most other martial arts. It is like making your body into one big continous ball. So joint mobility and synergy is much more important than being strong or even explosive.
Your muscles only know contraction and relaxation. They don’t care if they’re doing it against weight or against nothing. There are not different types of strength, nor are there different types of contraction. There is contracting and relaxing, and the only variance is with how much intensity each is performed.
When you lift weights you use the joints as a fulcrum point. The fulcrum is in one plane of motion. Therefore you are creating tension in one direction and not the other. Eventually this unevenly tightens the joint and doesn’t allow it to move as fluidly and circularily in all directions, which is a prerequisite for good Taiji.
Your joint moves in its path based on your muscles’ contractions/relaxations. Lifting weights does not hinder one’s ability to move through a ROM. If anything it increases it. Go read my post on page one again.
