Media.
News, TV, Music, etc. Although some forms of violence have decreased soem have increasesd but we are far from as violent as the media makes it out to be.
The message coming loud and clear from the artsy ****sies: if you dont prescribe to the idea of non competitive marriage of fighting skills and the all important life skills that are impossible to find elsewhere because of peer presure and the media, that you must be a bald headed, tattooed, roid-monster, baby killer, cage fighter who MUST jump at every opporatunity to show himself off and beat people up.
Who is to say you cant learn the skills of deception (and/or fighting) without being force fed this philosophical nonsense that you can find ALMOST EVERYWHERE ELSE.
People and professionals from all walks of life claim that only they can show you the way of right vs wrong, and if you dont sign-up then you are a heathen. They all say it the same way as the so-called Martial Artists. At our gym we drink water, not koolaid, and we bring our own.
No one is telling you you have to get a tattoo, fight in the cage, show off your skills just to be a “Martial Artist.” On the flipside, you artsies are saying that if you do any of those, that you are automatically a bad person on the wrong path, simply because your learning/training/teaching isent paired up with social skills and life lessons.
If people arent willing to step into a competition format and fight it out for the sake of others entertainment and true belief/demonstration of Martial Skills, then why spend so much energy trying to convince people otherwise. If those so-called masters-of-self dont care about this type of nonsense, then why are they constantly being mentioned? Real masters of self dont go around pointing it out, or ripping others down for their choice of a seperate path up the mountain. Why do you care if we arent trying to climb up your molehill? If we are truely on the path to nowhere, why are you walking right next to me yelling in my ear?
You still have to forge the steel before you can wrap it in cotton. Neither forging or wrapping requires good ethics.
:eek:
WinterPalm, I highly respect your post and those words sound like the words of a wise, secure man.
A few months ago I had to seriously reflect on something. The Gracie’s specialize in locks and thus in their cage matches it is not uncommon for them to break someone’s arm. Right now, when these guys shoot on me I almost always get them in a Hold The Ball or guillotine lock and have to ride it our and sprawl … I’m trained to use Pow Kuen (an uppercut motion driving off the leg) to crank their neck to kingdon come. I don’t know what would happen, my master is honest enough to say he’s never done it. But in a few instances I’ve had enough control to do it slow and steady and have gotten taps, I can feel the potential.
What am I getting at? I consider myself a man of God, or Tao. In that nothing is more important to me than doing right by myself and fellow man. At the same time every man is given God-given gifts and a unique mission in life. I personally feel, given my childhood experience, that I am destined to do something for my master’s style. That’s why I’m so serious about this, why I’m working to get a shot to showcase my stuff in the UFC. Though I’m not there yet. Probably need another two years.
When I get there, I made peace with myself not to edit my movements. Now, because of risk of being sued and the fact it’s not worth hurting someone seriously over a weekend challenge match, I have to refrain from doing certain things. And I’ve stopped participating in Throwdown because it’s not right to lure a weekend warrior to a match when they’re determination, motivation and intensity is simply not at the same level. This past weekend I had someone contact me saying they’re training for a competition too so I did go… it wasn’t even close. Thankfully, he learned something. That he has to pick it up or give it up. And I learned something too because I had bad position for a mere second and got thrown pretty hard.
I’m not sure if I’m expressing myself well here. I just know this is what I have to do for myself, I’m 32 and a writer and my best chance to do something in this life is demonstrate that an internalist can compete at the level. I mean, I see guys making good livings who just talk about chi. I figure if I train and become the real thing I can provide a life for myself and future family. I’ve been blessed to have found a real master so I’m going for it.
I hope I don’t get hurt, and I hope I never kill or maim anyone. That is my prayer before a fight. But part of my growth is being true in thoughts, words and actions. And I hope when I’m in the spotlight and some BJJ guy shoots on me, I capture his unprotected head and seperate it from his spine … because that’s truth. That’s a new potential being born. And to me, as a amrtial artist, that is beautiful.
Ray, are you freaking crazy? Of course you can snap their necks or arms. You’re supposed to NOT do that if you’re just fighting. That’s for life or death, not for the cage or the ring or the throwdown.
We always used to train lethal techniques but we never used those in sparring. When I took karate there were probably hundreds of times I could have come in on my opponent, hit them in the face with my forehead, grabbed their arm and broke it, kicked them in the nuts so hard they threw up, got behind them and broke their neck, etc. But I never did it. I often ‘lost’ to people far worse than me, because I was playing their game, sparring.
Using holding the ball in the ring will cause fatalities. But at least now we know your teacher actually teaches that, and not some useless fluff stuff.
Edit…
Basically, the UFC is totally stupid. It’s as real as it gets, yes. It’s as real as it gets without seriously maiming or killing the opponent.
Unfortunately that also means that there’s a lot of pummeling involved usually in getting the knockout, which is why I don’t do it because the $/face damage isn’t worth it. Scars for life vs. some fame and a little bit of money. No, I don’t think so. If they raised the $ to millions then I might consider it.
But those type of lethal techniques are not allowed. Of course somebody shoots you, they leave their entire head and back of their neck open. It’s one of the most asinine things you can ever do in a fight. Same with guard and leaving the groin wide open.
But that’s ring sports. That’s not real fighting.
im behind ray on this one.
truth, i want ray to succeed in this, very much so. not the breaking necks thing, though if that is what happens, that is what happens.
i want ray to take it to the top and show the world.
why? because im not going to, and someone needs to, and also, because i believe it to be possible.
???
It’s a GAME. Of course it’s rigged. Of course it’s possible to grab their head.
The second you try it, though, the ref will probably tell you to stop it.
You can’t hit the back of the head or the neck or drop vertical elbows on it like that, so I highly doubt they’ll let you grab the head.
Anyways you want to be known as the person who KILLED Forrest Griffith or Tito Ortiz or somebody in the ring? Bad show.
Edit …
Anyways with all the trauma science they’re coming up with in Iraq now, you’ll probably just paralyze them for life, but still that’s not the purpose of the game.
i doubt he will try to kill anyone.
Turn their neck like that, and it’s easy to make mistakes. All he has to do is slip or they try to crank out, and it breaks.
Some things are not meant for the ring.
I’ve been training basics a lot lately and it’s increasing my power but also opening up my mind and I’m finding two things: locks just fall into place sometime… and when they do, there is no time for tapping.
When someone pushes your arm down and at the same time stretches their’s out, and you step in against the elbow with the body while pulling their forearm towards you, it happens very fast, it’s sudden and sharp. This is different than mounting somone, using leverage to pull their arm from their chest and fighting them to the lock. There is a lot of time for someone to tap that way. It’s viable, and good to have. But taiji locks happen unexpectantly, and look almost accidental, like, “What happened?” Or that it’s the other guy’s fault.
Agree, however, the ones that truly have mastery are not going to be fighting in those types of events…now or then. Maybe on the way there but not once they have reached that point.
So it is up to the student to determine if the teacher is worthy. You can’t base it on how many trophies they have sitting in the case. You’ve got to touch hands with them and you will know instantly if they have skill or not.
The reason MA competitions were done was to keep pple form hiding behind things. The reason pple do it is because in modern society pple can call themselves MArtist and not be put to task. Before if you were a MArtist or seen as a “master” you were likely to be challenged to prove you worth. Those that refused either lost face or were likely forced to fight. (Sometimes directed by higher authority) Now if you call someone out the have excuses or will used Lawyer Fu.
C’mon we all know the real reason…to get more chicks…:D. But seriously, I think competition is good, but there the oiginal argument is about art and artistry. I’m saying the true “artist” is not going to be found in ring matches. He’s too beyond that.
Right. Jack of all trades master of none. None have been elevated to perfection…to an art. Kung fu has never been about covering all your bases, its about mastering things one by one. It takes patience and discipline and “kung fu.”
I don’t know about that. If you’re too old, that’s one thing. You can’t look down on somone who missed the UFC because it wasn’t around in their day and age, or someone who’s pushing their mid-40s.
But who is skilled at something and doesn’t like to do it? Kelly Slater has won 7 world titles, is 30-something and still competing. There are pro surfers in their 40s. Pro fighters in their late 30s and early 40s. This is what they do and love.
I don’t know if there are too many of these master’s ontop of the hill anymore. I suspect there are no more in China at least. I recently saw a video from last year’s Hsing-I gathering in China… my God! Terrible! No power.
Our generation will make or break Kung Fu. BJJ, Thai Boxing, and MMA are in good hands. What happens to Kung Fu is up to the last remaining masters and those of us who are learning it today.
Ray, I respect your passion and your dedication to your Sifu.
I don’t know if I’m a very wise man…maybe a wise guy!
But I respect your drive to do what you do and to take what everybody is saying is no good for fighting and putting it to use to maybe shut some people up. Then we can get off this whole style vs. style debate now cleverly desguised as methods vs. methods.
Like you, I too wish to do great things with the style my Sifu teaches and to see the art florish for generations. I think that every generation is responsible for the transmission of the art as a complete package that includes many elements not directly related to toe to toe. For if no one in the generation takes up the practice in earnest and propagates it, it will die. And for those that have tasted what there is to offer, after all the blood, sweat, and tears of generations, we know that dropping something in favour of a daily flavour or exotic blend isn’t going to cut it. Many will dissect and reassemble, and maybe come up with something but that is like starting from scratch with component pieces, lets take our approach and try to understand it and bring it with us into the future.
I really don’t think that there has ever been a time when Kung Fu was not a quality art…at least as it is taught and trained. I think there are just so few real authentic masters who have made it work for them, that it appears that way. What if we took every person that works out at a boxing gym and doesn’t compete, probably at least half if not more, and said that boxers were no good because of the majority?
I agree with everything you’re saying, but this last point says something. Yes, perhaps most boxers don’t go out, but there are so many that do that when the public hear’s “boxer,” they picture somone in a ring striking effectively.
No Kung Fu guys go out, and I’m not pleased with how Kung Fu is viewed today because I’ve seen it’s potential in many different systems but very few seem to be tapping into it. And like you said, very few seem to be puring freely.
I quit my job doing word processing and transcribing because it didn’t pay that well even though I typed 120 words per minute and was at the top of the field. (And it was boring as heck).
Just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean you like to do it.
They all reached mastery through such things. Retirement was something due to either injury, advanced age.
C’mon we all know the real reason…to get more chicks…:D. But seriously, I think competition is good, but there the oiginal argument is about art and artistry. I’m saying the true “artist” is not going to be found in ring matches. He’s too beyond that.
But he’s not. A true artist is not going to be one without testing his skills. Thats like Mario Andretti only playing Grand Turismo and then saying the Grand Prix is beyond him.
Our generation will make or break Kung Fu. BJJ, Thai Boxing, and MMA are in good hands. What happens to Kung Fu is up to the last remaining masters and those of us who are learning it today.
I truly believe CMA has a place in MMA. I think its very weird that when pple bring up CMA and MMA that you get tired arguements like “Ring vs Real” but will point out things like Lei Tai matches!?!?!?!?!
Uh..no.
I truly believe CMA has a place in MMA. I think its very weird that when pple bring up CMA and MMA that you get tired arguements like “Ring vs Real” but will point out things like Lei Tai matches!?!?!?!?!
I think you should only study from a teacher that has competed in and won a San Shou/Lei Tai/MMA/NHB/UFC type event.
Based on what you are saying nobody has anything to teach that hasn’t competed in that type of event or something similar.
More power to you, but you are missing out on a lot of good teachers out there that don’t compete in those sorts of events.
Your loss.
Uh YES.
Give me an example of a true master that has NOT tested his skills either in a challenge match, competition, etc.
I’ve studied with alot of pple around the globe and the ones the truly desevered the label of “master” were all ones developed their skills throw competition
I think you should study MMA because you are only going to believe that a teacher has skilled if he has competed in and won a MMA/NHB/UFC type event.
More power to you, but you are missing out on a lot of good teachers out there that don’t compete in those sorts of events.
Doubtful. What good teacher has never tested his skills? If you never applied it then can you trully teach it to someone else?
So if I looking for a GOOD teacher I going with one who has the experience in actual application vs those who don’t.
Again warriors of old, just that the ones now, used competitons to hone their skills for real situations. The military playes war games to help prepare for war. Even using paintballs. We even have Combatives touranments for the H2H aspect.
what you are saying nobody has anything to teach that hasn’t competed in that type of event or something similar.
Arent you knda saying the same thing, but backwards?
I’m following your logic here. I really am. SOME decent points there but you stepped of the path of reality with that sentence there.
Can’t grab the head?
Can you spell “guillitine”? Neck crank? Face lock? (that last one is rude as hell and many Jujitsu tournaments I am told it’s either illegal or just bad sportsmanship BUT, not dissalowed in MMA)
Grabbing the head is legal and common.
But I am totally there with you on the problem of how to test certain things. One I think about a lot is the Baji “ying mian zhang” or “welcoming the face palm”. Kind of superficially similar to a pi quan but with a huges leaping forward step. Most obvious application is just a forward palm to the face but with about 6 feet of followthrough. Basically just try to palm theur head like a basketball that your were passing down court to somoene. There’s just no way to check out how it works with the follow through on a friend. You have to be satisfied just knowing you landed your hand on his face.
But that sort of thing is just another aspect of training. Don’t think for a minute I haven’t spent a LOT of time trying to think about how to “un-deadly” lots and lots of Baji moves. That’s all you have to do. I got a 3 hit combo that opens up with an eye gouge. Big deal, change it to a regular punch to the nose. The idea is still there. It’s still baji. Got a defense against a hogh round that involves stabing your elbow into his chest? Change the angle a bit so you are just smacking him with your forearm.
Judo is just “un-deadlied” jujitsu. You can do the same thing with whatever “too deadly for the ring” gong fu you’ve got.
But I’m totlally rambling now. I originally just wanted to point out that grabbing the head is NOT dis-allowed in most MMA.