Martial Art.. what is the "Art"?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Greetings..

So many threads and so many opinions.. where are the Arts going?

Do we strip away the “Art” to reveal only the pure combative skills?

Is there real value to the “Arts”?

How does one differentiate between Fluff and Foundation?

Does a discipline devoid of value and culture promote pure violence?

Do teachers have a responsibility to try to balance the fighting skills they teach with social skills that might temper the inherent violence?

Can a “traditional” Martial Arts curriculum produce high-level fighters.. or, are they exclusive?

Just some questions.. Be well..

2

regardless of what some may believe. I hold a high value on the artistic aspect of my studies.

i feel it is through our deep reflection of the art that we can learn many truths that do not necessarily deal with combat. it is through this deeper thinking that we may discover more of ourself.

yes there are many things you will discover about yourself through simply pushing your physical limits, yet there are insights that may be revealed through our artistic aspect that can only be discovered through such.

much as the painter, sculptor, etc. it is an artistic understanding that becomes apparent.

as confucious believed, arts is a transmission from the heavens. along this same line, though perhaps not through a religious outlook, art is a reflection of our innerselves transmitted through action and creation.

i feel that when you are learning your art, you will have a different perception than another may, it is this perceptive difference that can set us apart from our training brothers and sisters. though what i do may look like what you do, it is the small intricate details of the way we percieve and put into action the movements that we do.

without art i do not feel you can make the style “yours” for it is the art that makes it personal.

3

TCB, two things…one is my current pet peeve and that is the incredible redundancy in topics (which you sort of point out) yet you don’t really ask any new questions.

second…

He who works with his hands is a laborer.

He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.

He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.

I’m sure you know that quote.

To me, ‘art’ is about self expression…if I choose to express myself by training to beat the crap out of someone in the ring then that is art as well…it’s completely subjective (as is a lot of what is said here) so you can’t really argue with someone’s opinion of what ‘art’ is.

So, everyone who does a martial art/discipline is an artist even if they might eschew the term ‘martial artist’.

Does a discipline devoid of value and culture promote pure violence?

i think maybe you are stereotyping a bit here. I think the answer is no if you are referencing schools that only train for fighting.

hell, my experience with one activity that breeds socially violent people is high school and college football.

4

Greetings..

Oso: Agreed on the redundancy issue! and, true, i don’t ask new questions, if there truely are any.. but, a consensus or reasonable answers to these questions would be a small step toward a higher goal..

So, everyone who does a martial art/discipline is an artist even if they might eschew the term ‘martial artist’.
While i understand and agree with the philosophical notion you put forth, i am hoping (against hope) that people will dialogue this to a point of balance.. where art and skill can re-unite..

The stereotyping is a nuanced intention.. from an observer’s perspective i have seen more than a reasonable (by my standards, of course) percentage of fighters that train purely for the fight, take their skills to the street looking for validation.. To be fair, i did something similar.. i took a job as a bouncer for about 8 months and got schooled in oh so many ways.. but, the lessons have served me well (and the scars are good conversation starters, too).. my intention, though, was not to visit violence on innocent people.. to find a venue where the variables exceeded my safe training eenvironment, and the subjects could reasonably expect a conflict management situation.. many lessons were in negotiation for acceptable terms of non-violent resolutions.. others were not so favorable..

But, the question might better be posed as “how do we minimize the liklihood of skill-testing in unjustified situations”?

And, Yes.. i am familiar with the quote.. it rings true.. Thanks

Be well..

5

The ART in the term MARTIAL ARTS means SKILL.

The main, and only criteria, part of MA is that is is a SKILL (Art) pretaining to combat (Martial)

MA teachers are not really qualified to teach social skills, thats the job of parents and acutal qualified pple. A MA teachers main responsiblity is to instill combative skills into their students. If the student gets something else out of it thats fine but the the purpose.

Now with that said teaches do have to right to choose who they want to teach. If they feel someone is going to only reak havok then they don’t have to train them but its not really their responsiblity to instill something else, especially if it might conflict with established beliefs of that persons family or other social circles.

6

my qigong teacher yen chu feng was watching a guy finish cement while we were walking into a resturant for lunch.. she said he has good gungfu. while I agreedand new what she was meaning my young student said thats not kung fu… the term is so loosly understood and labeled perhaps it has been tarnished and misconstrued.

In my system we advertise it being a complete system not a stlye. there are many schools and faimlies out there that have only the style and its roots have somewhere been lost.
ie
we have herbology, tui na, accupunture, fighting, qigong, taji, nei gong, wei gong and bone setting.

This is what makes real traditional kung fu stay alive. who has the right to weaken these teachings and concentrate on fighting only? NO ONE. our system has been passed down for 350 years. who are we the ignorant American people to change such history and beauty.

7

The acutal definitions fo the terms might help clear things up.

mar·tial
adj.

  1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
  2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
  3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

art
n.

       1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
     2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

     3. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

I post the definition because the term MARTIAL ART is an English one and this is were it derives from. Although most pple think only of Asian arts when they hear the term it is actually much broader than that. So a discussion of what social skills and philosphical things sheouc be in MA isn’t a good one unless you take in all the different cutural and social norms form the various societies around the globe.

8

Asia,

[B]The main, and only criteria, part of MA is that is is a SKILL (Art) pretaining to combat (Martial)

MA teachers are not really qualified to teach social skills, thats the job of parents and acutal qualified pple. A MA teachers main responsiblity is to instill combative skills into their students. If the student gets something else out of it thats fine but the the purpose.

Now with that said teaches do have to right to choose who they want to teach. If they feel someone is going to only reak havok then they don’t have to train them but its not really their responsiblity to instill something else, especially if it might conflict with established beliefs of that persons family or other social circles.[/B]

I ABSOLUTLY AND TOTATLLY DISAGREE

the term shifu means father/teacher…it is OUR duty to instill values and morals when teaching not to simply teach how to punch and kick.

So in school it is simply the math teachers job to add and subtract? if so they need to seek another profession.
Part of the teaching responsibilities is to shape and form young wandering minds to do well, succeed and make responsible decisions. This caonnt be taught by… here johnny this is how you punch someone in the face correctly. this perhaps is the problem with outlooks such as these…
You are obviouly not a teacher.

9

It’s like this. Basically I’ve found there are two types of MA teacher (yes, gross simplification).

Those that talk of ‘culture’ and those that teach martial arts, while possibly practicing culture.

I break these down into Pre-PRC teachers and PRC teachers (PRC = People’s Republic of China, or Communists).

Example of this is a lot of teachers from the PRC now that has ‘associations’ to teach ‘culture’ to ‘good people’. This means they teach a lot of forms, show little to no applications, do little to no fighting and few to no partner drills.

When they cannot answer basic questions, they will give you excuses, “Oh, non-Chinese cannot understand Chinese culture. You shouldn’t teach bad people. Sparring is violent, look at those Hung Gar guys who always get hurt.”

Yet the bottom line is they never learned much in the way of Chinese culture, because it was basically destroyed under the Communists. They never learned the fighting applications because they were banned under the communists. Unless they were totally underground they have no clue as to what they are doing.

Then there are the Chinese teachers who teach martial arts (pre-PRC), that do forms, drills, and conditioning. Yet many of these still do not do much unscripted sparring. It seems like a face-saving mechanism because if they were to do it, then they’d probably have to show their own skill, etc.

Yet a lot of these practice Chinese culture because that’s the way they were raised. They don’t keep it away from non-Chinese.

Anyway, I’m tired of this entire conversation. What do you consider ‘art’? Doing your forms pretty? Doing calligraphy? Practicing medicine? Studying books?

Tai Chi Bob, what do you consider ‘art’?

Because this is martial arts we’re talking about, not flower arranging.

10

the term shifu means father/teacher…it is OUR duty to instill values and morals when teaching not to simply teach how to punch and kick.

Your duty trumps that of the ACTUAL Father???:confused:

And the ony criteria for you to be a MA IS to teach to punch, kick, choke, throw, etc. If you didn’t then you wouldn’t be one.

So in school it is simply the math teachers job to add and subtract?

No the math teachers job is to simply teach YOU how to add and subtract.

Part of the teaching responsibilities is to shape and form young wandering minds to do well, succeed and make responsible decisions. T

Off info it is NOT your responsiblity to SHAPE. Thats the Parents. You don’t trump their will. The don’t pay you to raise their child they pay you to teach them MA.

This caonnt be taught by… here johnny this is how you punch someone in the face correctly.

Actually is is when its your JOB to do just that.

You are obviouly not a teacher.

No my job title right now says INSTRUCTOR, but hey its synonymous.

11

Whats wrong with our own culture(s)?

When was it written in stone to be defended until death that when you learn how to fight people - you must do it wearing weirdo clothing , a seperate language, and enough lingo and mystery to film a two part vegas special?

Isent it already all our our “responsibility” to temper ourselves, our family, friends, and children with good character, values, and morals?

When did this artsy ****sy stuff become the other half of the coin when it comes to learning how to defend and fight?

…and if thats what you want to pursue, how does that suddenly de-value what the rest of us want to pursue? Like if your not wearing some weird costume, posing in weird postures, and calling each other weird names all the while reading enlightment texts, if you study and train to fight without those things, your some sort of barbarian?

Aligning meridians and understanding 5 element theory might interest you, what does it have to do with me?

:eek:

12

Yeah I have to agree with Asia here. I’m almost 40 and I’m not looking for another dad.

And I wouldn’t want some instructor trying to instill his or her values into my kids either. My kids can make up their own minds.

They already know first-hand what happens when people are irresponsible and don’t take care of people and do drugs and stuff. They don’t need to have some autocratic instructor messing with their heads.

13

I have taught for many years and many students join for many reasons.

One of the major reasons is seek a father figure. I have taught many single parent families and to get moms point across they will often say i will let your shifu know what you have done.
This works wonders and if I can make a positive change in someons life than I will everytime i can.

I have taken kids off the streets, off drugs and talked out of joining a gang when the father was in prision. it goes way beyond punching and kicking my friend a teacher is a full time job, class is only 2 hours…

14

Thats great but again that the EXTRA stuff, NOT your job.

I’ve taught many years. I deal with pple form all walks of life. My primary job, at the moment, it to teach them how to FIGHT and to teach them how to communicate and repair equipment. Do I sometimes act as a father figure to those under my charge? Yes. Do I counsel them? Yes. Is that what MA is about? Nope.

15

I thought you only teach 18 and over?

Why does learning some chinese system of fighting/philosophy now qualify you to tell the rest of us what is right and wrong? Only Chinese people who study for years and years at a Traditional Chinese Martial “Art” are golden enough to teach the rest of us?

Is this something you ask people when they first come in? Is it just one of the check boxes on the question sheet? What do you want to get from all this: Character building, Confidence, Self defense, Dicipline, and Daddy/Mommy/Life Shaper?

Its not the place of my blub/gym/school to find people on drugs and fix them with our philosophy of self defense.

A bunch of nonsense. Obviosuly designed to de-value the other non-Chinese/non-philosophical diciplines - and the people that are involved with them.

:eek:

16

Greetings..

Oso: Agreed on the redundancy issue! and, true, i don’t ask new questions, if there truely are any..

my point exactly. nothing new under the sun.

but, a consensus or reasonable answers to these questions would be a small step toward a higher goal..

agreed…but the answers will largely be the same as before

Quote:
So, everyone who does a martial art/discipline is an artist even if they might eschew the term ‘martial artist’.

While i understand and agree with the philosophical notion you put forth, i am hoping (against hope) that people will dialogue this to a point of balance.. where art and skill can re-unite..

agreed. however, I think that the skill of fighting is more lacking in those that say that are in it for the arts sake…and in many of those that say they are in it for the skill of fighting but don’t really test themselves.

The stereotyping is a nuanced intention.. from an observer’s perspective i have seen more than a reasonable (by my standards, of course) percentage of fighters that train purely for the fight, take their skills to the street looking for validation..

[B]maybe so but I’ve seen a far higher percentage of people from my example do the same.

to be fair, people who want to do violence are going to do it one way or the other.[/B]

To be fair, i did something similar.. i took a job as a bouncer for about 8 months and got schooled in oh so many ways.. but, the lessons have served me well (and the scars are good conversation starters, too).. my intention, though, was not to visit violence on innocent people.. to find a venue where the variables exceeded my safe training eenvironment, and the subjects could reasonably expect a conflict management situation.. many lessons were in negotiation for acceptable terms of non-violent resolutions.. others were not so favorable..

[B]I did the same but for 7 years. My rationale was that if someoene started something in a bar then they were in the wrong and if they resisted to the point where I had to be extra physical with them they got what they deserved.

But, we already know we have differing alignments. ;)[/B]

But, the question might better be posed as “how do we minimize the liklihood of skill-testing in unjustified situations”?

well, that brings up the subject of only teaching to ‘honorable’ people. that’s largely a bunch of malarky…especially in a commercial situation. You’re not going to know up front most of the time. I have kicked people out for being idiots and will do so again if necessary and all my students know that if they fight then they will have to justify their actions to me as well as to parents, principals and police. They also know, to a degree, how I feel about fighting and that there is a place and a time for it.

And, Yes.. i am familiar with the quote.. it rings true.. Thanks

Be well..

That one hangs on the wall in my school. Makes people think I’m religious…which I’m not especially. It’s just true.

17

Art=expression of self.

Martial Art=an expression of the martial self.

We could argue for days about what is and what is not an expression of the true martial self.

18

However you definition of ART in this case is incorrect. When you speak of Martial, Culinary, or Smithing Art. That means SKILL no self expression.

19

TOTALLY agree with this…but mcdojo’s and mcguan’s ARE setting the teachers up to do just that. Parents these days don’t WANT the responsibility it seems. It’s ****ed up.

I’m seriously thinking about running some advertising to poke fun at this concept.

“Good Kung Fu, Bad Marketing”

I think I’d get a lawsuit over that one from the Kwoon peeps though.

Another idea is to rip the whole thing about kids getting better grades, manners, discipline and focus. Kinda like ‘build your self esteem on your own time’

the marketing has taken the things that are the by products of any sort of good physical skill attainment and made them the goal versus the attainment of skill.

20

when we are dealing with americans we must remember that in one class it is quite common to have those of varying backgrounds be it cultural, religious or any other.

our school for example, vietnamese, chinese, black, white. american born, viet born, etc. buddhists, catholics, christians, athiests.

we in our school are a melting pot.

my teacher is VERY buddhist. he preaches nothing.

phylosophically, he leads by example, not by words.

it is his job to teach us to fight, and the tradition of our arts. it IS his resposibility to conduct himself in a professinal manner and, for him, to act in accordance with his beliefs.

it is through this everyday actions and effects that we recieve our phylosophical influence from our teacher. he does not tell us what the scriptures would have us do. he does what his scriptures would have him do.

he actually handles his martial and personal beliefs in perfect balance for todays american society. Funny, he does this better than most americans though he was born and raised in asia.:rolleyes: