Martial Art.. what is the "Art"?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

yenhoi …
I thought you only teach 18 and over?
Yes but I do get younger high schoolers from time to time. But I dont teach a children’s class.

Why does learning some chinese system of fighting/philosophy now qualify you to tell the rest of us what is right and wrong? Only Chinese people who study for years and years at a Traditional Chinese Martial “Art” are golden enough to teach the rest of us?

wisdom, role model, etc etc why would you say only chinese people who study for years can? I studied for 26 years form the chinese I am not qualified to teach right from wrong?

Is this something you ask people when they first come in? Is it just one of the check boxes on the question sheet? What do you want to get from all this: Character building, Confidence, Self defense, Dicipline, and Daddy/Mommy/Life Shaper?

no question sheet in my school but yes you will learn Character building, Confidence, Self defense, Dicipline as well as fighting, healing and anatomy skills

Its not the place of my blub/gym/school to find people on drugs and fix them with our philosophy of self defense.

then where is? If I cna make a differnece to someone shouldnt I? teacher, friend mentor or not?

A bunch of nonsense. Obviosuly designed to de-value the other non-Chinese/non-philosophical diciplines - and the people that are involved with them.

your mistaken, the same values are taught in karate and other martial arts as well. The samurai were taught 1 strike 1 kill but Character building, Confidence, Self defense, Dicipline were instilled as well from thier sensei.
did master miyagi teach only fighting to danielson

22

I didnt say you shouldent teach those things. I am saying that it doesnt make the rest of us bad people or our diciplines bad by default because we dont prescribe to this foreign idea that learning to fight and beat people up goes hand in hand with learning when to say please and thank you. You can do Whatever you want at your place and I could care less, as soon as you preachers go on telling the rest of us that what we do is some how less because its not coached inside this weirdo enlightment, we are better People then all the others, simply because we practice X and put this goodness label on it.

I studied for 26 years form the chinese I am not qualified to teach right from wrong?

Heck no. Maybe, and thats it, maybe, and it has nothing to do with “Art.” its very possible and easy to be a good person before you find someone to teach you how to fight, stay a good person while you learn how to fight, and still be a good person after you have fought some, all without a single word from your teacher about whats right and wrong in the world.

If you guys are so golden, then what do you care how the rest of us teach? I dont think its very good person-ish to go around telling other people they arent as good person-ish because they dont preach about wu de or worry their heads for a single moment trying to teach their students good people skills.

Its not very good leading by example if you have to shout “Look at me!” The whole time.

then where is?

Not here. I dont care where you get it, I dont see it as my place to teach it to people. if you do then thats fine with me, but when you start to portray everyone else as wrong because we dont, then your out of line.

your mistaken, the same values are taught in karate and other martial arts as well. The samurai were taught 1 strike 1 kill but Character building, Confidence, Self defense, Dicipline were instilled as well from thier sensei.
did master miyagi teach only fighting to danielson

I am not mistaken. This weirdo father/teacher concept is found in some form in almost all types of “Martial Arts.” I didnt say it was only Chinese. You guys seem to be trying to paint the picture that if you dont teach or learn in this paired fashion, that you are somehow automatically a lesser good-person. I think just saying things like that voids any type of good person mojo you might have going on.

Mr Miyagi and the Karate Kid are the standard for good person/good martial teachings and trainings? Thats psycho.

:eek:

23

Bottomline is the real people who follow Chinese culture and confucianism don’t preach wude. They follow Confucianism and they have culture and respect and all that, but they don’t preach it, they don’t try to instill it in you, that is just what they do.

The people who preach wude and all that crap usually can’t fight their way out of a box, they are usually wushu or PRC non-fighting people.

So the entire wude vs. non-wude argument is pretty much moot. I’ve never met a hardcore martial arts teacher, Chinese, Japanese or otherwise who went around preaching wude. They were too busy training and training their students.

24

COBRA KAI !!:smiley:

seriously though, i think as a teacher, it is all of our duties to do our best.

it is a case by case situation.

some kids may need that father figure, thiers may be dead. That may be the whole purpose the mother brings them in.

25

for instance.

i did not begin my studies of chinese system until i was an adult.

i began my studies of chinese martial arts, to learn to fight like the chinese. plain and simple.

a new student joined to loose weight. another joined to return to thier studies. another joined to gain physical fitness and to improve thier basket ball game. (which it has)

people join for many reasons. as a teacher it is our duty to meet THOSE needs of the students.

if one comes to me and says " can you help me, i feel lost in this world and am looking for a phylosophical aid "

i would then ask them where they feel they are in thier life and offer any insights i may so that they can choose what they want to take with them.

a student should be able to come to thier teacher with any problem. this is a responsibility a teacher accepts when they open to the public. otherwise teach who you choose behind closed doors.

there are different students and likewise there are different teachers

to each his own…

26

yenhoi I agree with your point and it its valid.

I must however explain that I NEVER said if you dont do these things are you not as good as the ones who do, or your art is not comparable or anything negitive thing like that.

I would never push anything on anybody but will always go out of my way to help guide those who need it, teach those that wish to learn and correct those who need corrected. In my school and in my life as a friend, brother, father and teacher.

I dont care, pursway, instill or judge how others teach its not my place. Perhaps you mis interperated what I tried to convey, Or perhaps I did not explain my point corectly.

27

So why do we call it martial art rather than martial skill or martial craft or the skill of fighting or war skill or skill of war or…etc, etc, etc.?

There are important subtleties between a skill, craft and art.

28

Because ART means skill. Thats why. You never heard the term WARCRAFT? (no I am not just refering to the game)

There are important subtleties between a skill, craft and art.

Incorrect. Craft, Skill, and Art are all synoymous. There are not subtleies between them. This can be easily shown by using a reference like a Thesaurus.

Main Entry: art
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: skill
Synonyms: adroitness, aptitude, artistry, craft, craftsmanship, creativity, dexterity, expertise, facility, imagination, ingenuity, inventiveness, knack, know-how, knowledge, mastery, method, profession, trade, virtuosity

Main Entry: craft
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: skill
Synonyms: ability, adeptness, adroitness, aptitude, art, artistry, cleverness, competence, cunning, dexterity, expertise, expertness, ingenuity, knack, know-how*, proficiency, technique, workmanship

Main Entry: skill
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: ability
Synonyms: accomplishment, address, adroitness, aptitude, art, artistry, bag, cleverness, clout, command, competence,craft, cunning, deftness, dexterity, dodge*, ease, experience, expertise, expertism, expertness, facility, finesse, goods*, handiness, ingenuity, intelligence, job, knack*, know-how*, line, makings, mastership, mastery, moxie*, one’s thing*, profession, proficiency, prowess, quickness, readiness, right stuff*, savvy*, skillfulness, sleight, smarts*, stuff*, talent, technique, trade, work

Emphasis mine.

29

Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
The study of these activities.
The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith’s art.
Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).

arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
Artful contrivance; cunning.
Printing. Illustrative material.

not all art requires a skill. for instance, Nature is one of the greatest artists.

how much skill is required for the beauty and art of a fully unique and perfect sunset? none.

your definition was limited.

30

No, my definition was germane to the subject matter. You are confusing aesthitc art which a art for as skill.

Remeber just because a word has many definitions doesn’t mean they all pretain to a subject.

If you look at any historic european MA manual you will see the word art and skill being used interchangabley.

31

The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements

correct me if i am wrong, but im pretty sure this does pertain to martial arts. skill may be part of the process, but it is not the only part.

the skill feeds the creation but skill alone does not merit art.

there is martial science and there is martial art. not the same.

32

wow has this become a literial topic. call it what you will, lets not stumble over definations.

Perhaps this is the problem, we cant get over the meaning therefore what it is that we are trying to attain? skill or art does it matter? what has been lost?
the true essence or origin of the name? I think not… for it is just a label

33

i am quit of this conversation.

34

You still have the confusion of aesthtic art and art as a skill.

Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith’s art.

This pretains more to MA than the one above.

35

many things that make one thing

TMA really has many aspects if you look at them collectively, you have Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and other places. Between the hundreds of Kung Fu styles, the myriad Japanese and Korean styles, and the others, together they encompass many aspects; art, science, applied science, sport, exercise, combat, self defense, entertainment, history, meditation, philosophy, etc. This is collectively not just an art, but a cultural treaure! TMAs are the greatest gift china et al has given the world, I look forward to the day when rare and beautiful deadly arts from China are taught openly and correctly to americans and the rest of the world that wants to learn and help to preserve these arts for the priceless treasures they are. One day maybe more styles can be shared in friendship between Chinese peoples, and Americans.

Jing Wu Rocks
Taoism Rocks
Tai Chi Rocks
:smiley:

36

TMA does not just mean Asian arts. Given the oldest recorded systemized MA come form Africa and the Middle east.

There is much more to China as to say that TCMA are its greast gift to the world.

37

I belive Tai Chi is most certainly China’s greatest gift to the world, a beautiful combat art that promotes longevity, lowers blood sugar in type 2 diabetics, lowers blood pressure better than many western medicines, reduces stess, reduces muscle spasms, helps improve balance in neuropathy patients, and teaches principles that can be applied to any area of your life to help you succeed.
And if you notice in the first part I said “other places” in the list of TMAs, that would include stuff like capoiera sp., silat, escrima, greek MAs, basically everyplace else not mentioned by name, because of either commomality (boxing) or being relatively unknown, I just used China as an example because we study Kung Fu, and its well known there are many essentially unknown styles in the west, we kung fu guys in the U.S. WANT to learn those styles. I admire and love all Chinese culture, it is to me most certainly the pearl of the orient, I an also fascinated by Japanese culture, and admire many of their values. I long for the day the US extends the olive branch to China. We had no problems with China’s empire, how is communism any better or worse to us?
:slight_smile:

38

Art has an ambiguous meaning…it has more than one definition.

Main Entry: 2art
Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin art-, ars – more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
synonyms ART, SKILL, CUNNING, ARTIFICE, CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power <the art of choosing the right word>. SKILL stresses technical knowledge and proficiency <the skill of a glassblower>. CUNNING suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing <a mystery plotted with great cunning>. ARTIFICE suggests technical skill especially in imitating things in nature <believed realism in film could be achieved only by artifice>. CRAFT may imply expertness in workmanship <the craft of a master goldsmith>.

Emphasis is mine.

You are limiting the definition of art to the one definition when in fact there are at least three and they to some degree overlap. Your interpreting the term “martial art” to mean “martial skill” but others are including the other definitions of art…something Bruce Lee hinted at in his writings.

So I would appreciate it if you didn’t represent your interpretation of the “art” in “martial art” as some kind of hard fact.

Now, my question to you is why choose the word “art” when there are less ambiguous terms like “skill” or “craft”?

To me, art is something different than a skill or craft even though technically the words can, in some cases, be used interchangably.

There are examples in the vernacular that demonstrate that art and craft are not the same thing…

for example…artshow vs craftshow, artist vs. craftsman.

To me the “craft” is the part that can be learned. Its the “skill” part but the “art” part is the part that can’t be learned…you can only be helped along to express your own “art.”

Its like when you learn from your kung fu teacher. He can show you the moves (the “craft” or “skill”) but you have to make it work for you, make it part of you, then it becomes an “art”…your “art.”

Or something like that…I don’t think there is a right or wrong here.

39

I belive Tai Chi is most certainly China’s greatest gift to the world, a beautiful combat art that promotes longevity, lowers blood sugar in type 2 diabetics, lowers blood pressure better than many western medicines, reduces stess, reduces muscle spasms, helps improve balance in neuropathy patients, and teaches principles that can be applied to any area of your life to help you succeed.

So do jogging, weight lifting, pilates and just about all other regularly performed physical fitness activities.

40
  1. If you practice to have good skills or perfect a certain skill or master that skill, it becomes your craftness. You have to know the in’s and out’s of the skill. You know the tactics and strategy of the skill. You use the skill as if part of you and you use it at a high level. Then it is an art. An art is a self expression of a skill at unique and high level. In short, practice/practitioner->craftmanship-> artist.

After some practice, you know how to use a long spear. Great. After more practice, the spear becomes part of you or you becomes the spear. You move or breathe, and the spear “moves” and “breathe” WITH you. After more practice, there is only the spear and there is no you. or you may use any stick as if it is a long spear. or you may use your fist and arms as if a long spear. oops, that is Xing Yi.

  1. Teacher is not required to teach social ettiquette. But it would be nice to mention the philosophy comes along with the style.

  2. emphasize the defense aspects of the skills and counter attack as the offense aspects. or teach moves and counter moves in pair. The violent intents are balanced with neutralizing intents.

  3. A high level fighter is some one self motivated. A teacher may show them the ways. They make the journey from practice and sparring. The curriculum are showing the ways.

Peace out.

:smiley: