Martial Art.. what is the "Art"?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
61

It’s kindof telling that people like Musashi who wrote books wrote them after they were accomplished martial artists in a fighting sense and had survived that experience.

In terms of culture being somehow incompatible with the fighting arts, I don’t think that it is, but I don’t think you can say that somebody’s culture has to include fighting arts.

For example, I have yet to meet a single person from China or Japan outside of a martial arts class that practices any martial arts. I met one person from Chinese who took tai chi because his school required a phys ed class and that allowed him to sleep in until 7:00 instead of getting up at 6:30.

I don’t think you will find many that the great majority of Americans or Europeans practice traditional non-gun based American or European martial arts from the past 200 years or so, including archery, knife fighting, axe fighting, fencing, rapier, boxing, etc. Shooting sports are more popular. Because shooting has been the main mode of fighting in the West for at least 150 years.

So does learning how to shoot include learning about the history of shooting, great gun battles, etc.? No, not really. Do they teach western military history in police or SWAT classes? I don’t know. I don’t think so.

So if you are really interested in traditional Japanese or Chinese culture, how much of that actually includes war? Surely traditional house building, dress, beliefs, ideals, etc., do not include war.

War and martial arts were for protecting the village, protecting oneself and actually fighting people.

For example, I was told that in China or Japan it was rare for non-nobles or non-samurai to actually learn swordsmanship because swords were very expensive and rare. The common people even if they went to war wouldn’t learn sword, they would usually learn spear.

So how can you figure that martial arts means something besides studying fighting methods and arts of war? ??? Hmmm???

It sounds like you’re trying to make something into something that it’s not.

62

Basically it’s one thing for an old man, after the battles are fought, to sit in the tea house and read books and talk about culture and martial arts.

It’s quite another for a young person, whose battles are yet to be fought, to waste time worrying about culture and waste time sipping tea, instead of learning how to fight. Such a person probably will not make it to old age, unless they live in a very low violence society like ours.

63

whos to say that extra “baggage” doesn’t help someone become a better martial artist? look how zen buddhism influenced bujutsu. the whole no mind(mushin?) concept that samurai developed and bushido for instance. its inseparable from japanese culture and influenced it for the good i think…for the most part.

artistry to me simply means someones individualistic unique expression in the tasks they perform. which is to say everyones skill is unique. no ones has any choice but to have individual ways of doing things. we aren’t automatons after all. and since no situation is the same in combat martial arts are the perfect medium to express artistry in. just like no painting or piece of music is exactly the same. or you can think of martial arts like dancing. it may be harder to see in martial arts becuz fighting is dirty business after all, but like a couple other people already said, learning the skills only takes you so far.

64

I guess I just don’t get the guys who are talking about ‘art’ other than fighting or pertaining to war. Martial art is war. If it wasn’t war, then it would be called cooking art or building art or something like that.

So I guess I retire from this discussion. Confused.:confused:

65

Chinese “arts” have always had a civil and a martial side…Wen and Wu.

Kung Fu literally means “work/skill and effort.” Through the mastery of the “art” of fighting we master our “self.” Beating someone up is easy, even easier to shoot them or cut them. That is not “art.” Because you can win simply by being big and strong or in the case of guns and knives you just have to be able to pick them up.

Fighting is elevated to an art when you have total control of your self, mind, body and spirit.

It is really the difference between process goals and product goals. A “process goal” is something you pick up along the way. The “product goal” is what you achieve at the end of the journey.

Both are important but for different reasons. The “product goal” is like a real world marker of your progress. It tells you if you need to change something in your “process.”

However, a “process goal” is transferable. For example, if I elevate something like cooking to an “art,” then I may not know a thing about martial arts but I know the “process” by which I elevate something to an “art.” Though the specific skills involved are different I will know the right mindset to achieve the “product goal.”

So there is a difference between Wu Shu and fighting. The mindset of “kung fu” as applied to fighting elevates it to “art.” But it could just as easily be cooking, knitting, math, meditation, etc. What you learn through the discipline involved spills out into everything that you do in “civil” life.

And that’s just part of it…

66

As I told Pang. Because a word has several definitions that doesn’t mean they are all apt to certian terms. Just like a work can be a adj. or a noun but it wouldn’t be used as both at one time. ART has also been a verb. an indicative to “be”. (ex: Thou art mad!) Thats the form fo the word apply to the term Martial Art? No. The difinintions I posted were what are revelant to the subject matter and the term of MA. Its is pretty cut and dry.

67

No you didn’t.

His chosen definition of the word “art” was used arbitrarily to fit his interpretation of “martial art” when there are 3 other definitions.

Also, he has not addressed why the word “art” was chosen over the synonyms (BTW, syn means “like,” not exactly same) “craft” and “skill.”

Again I asked if you ever heard the term WARCRAFT it was used as well and I also pointed out that the in historical Martial Arts manuals the term ART was used for SKILL often. You should research this before thinking you have it down. I will even point you in the right direction.

The merriam-webster quote that I pulled perfectly delineates between the words “art” “craft” and “skill” even though they are synonmyms and mean something like “method to achieve a desired result.”

See above.

68

I lived in Japan, Korea, and Hong Kong (a total of 13yrs) plus I’ve visited mainland China several times and very few pple practiced practiced MA. Of those few most had to take some in school and never kept it up after they left. This is why I say Taichibob is very wrong if he thinks Taijiquan is China’s greatest gift because the Chinese don’t even think so.

For example, I was told that in China or Japan it was rare for non-nobles or non-samurai to actually learn swordsmanship because swords were very expensive and rare. The common people even if they went to war wouldn’t learn sword, they would usually learn spear.

This is true. Swords are expensive and not common among commenors. If you look at many of the “layman” arts they contain common tools or very cheap weapons (ie a bo or baton) This is seen alot in various JMA of jujutsu like Asayma Ichden Ryu, Tenshin Koryu Kenpo, etc.

69

Everything that is about the fighting is part of it.

So in the MIG Alley, F-86 pilots downed more MIG’s due to more experiences and skillfulness in the dogfight.

Later, Taiwan’s F-86 downed some MIG’s were due to the heat-seeking Sidewinder air to air missiles. Dogfight skills were still important but not as demanding.

After Taiwan air force got hold of the MIG 15 or 17, the test pilots flied the planes and said I only wish we have the planes ourself.

My point is that there are many factors to win in the fight. Sometimes, the skillfulness is the only thing to rely on. Sometimes, there are more factors, such as better weapons, planes, tactics, strategy, outnumbering etc then just personal skills.

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70

I used to think Martial Arts was such a great term. And it must have been in a time when people were hacking each other apart with axes to see someone with such skill that was devoid of effort, something smooth and beatiful. Something that looked elevated from pure adrenaline and hatred. A master. An artisan of war.

Today that term has been basterdized. Martial artists? I rarely see martial practioners. Though every once in a while I meet someone on bullshido that shows me real martial arts will never die, someone who comes and tests there stuff and win or lose leaves energized to train and further perfect their stuff. Unfortunately, this is the exception in “martial arts” today.

I see the UFC today and I see great fighters, great warriors, disciplines men who devout their time and body to become the best weapon they can … but rarely do I see a martial artists. I think Diego is a great example of a martial artists. A warrior who has elevated beyond hate and anger and sheer adrenaline for victory. He is calm and composed and fighting from a different place. This is the great benefit if Asian martial arts and a source of efficiency into older age. I always wish him well. At the same time, I fear fighting a guy like that dude that got beat down by Bonner but kept coming, who KOed someone after getting his arm broken. That fierceness is invaluable and part of it. But I haven’t seen a master in there yet. Maybe it’s impossible with everyone’s level so high. But Gracie showed mastery when he first came in. I’m hoping there will be another revolution in MA and we’ll all have the game changed on us again.

This is artistry. Pushing beyond the regular. Right now, everyone’s fighting the same again. Everyone’s trying to do everything and the overall level of each part doesn’t seem so good.
…

As for traditional. Traditional time is over. What is traditional? What people call traditional today is not traditional… it’s neo classical. It’s guys pretending to be traditional. But when you really had bandits coming to your place to rape and pillage, you didn’t have time to learn Gun jee fook fu … you better get your basics tight – and fast!

People training traditional today … the proof is in the pudding. They can’t fight. Most won’t fight. They give you a list of reasons ranging from too deadly to its not the point of martial arts. Then what is the point of martial arts? You can get spiritual training from a number of places, but where do you go for martial training if you don’t want to join the military? You go to a martial art gym.

How many actually provide that level of learning?

Martial artists need to be honest with themself. Do you want to work hard, have sore muscles, GET BLOODY AND HURT? Now, I train not to get hurt, not to trade blows … but the other guy isn’t sitting at home on the couch either. It will happen.

OK, too many words already. We all know the answers to this question. It’s obvious. You have to choose not to be a pu$$y and walk the walk and do it right, or fool yourself and dabble and talk the talk and pretend.

The funny thing is, doing it right takes less time and is easier. The hard part is committing.

71

In the end, it still takes a pilot with the balls to get in the plane, take off, and put himself in harms way. Sidewinder missiles, ect. = arm bar, etc.

Fighter pilot = martial artist. … kid playing latest Nintendo fighter pilot video game = traditional form expert.

72

That’s a great point.

73

Also, I really have to question if we are going to see one of these “artisan’s” in an event like the UFC. If you have mastery over the self then you have nothing to prove to anyone. So why would you enter an event like UFC which is all about proving something? It’s like this weird paradox that the more you master something the less you care about proving your skill to someone else.

The problem is that it make it impossible to separate the wheat from the shaft because you will always have those teachers that hide behind “my art is too deadly” argument that have no skill.

You will never be able to differentiate between them from the teachers that do. However, if you test hands with them then you will know right away. At least that’s true in the internal arts.

74

well im just saying. i dont understand how you can see every individual style of fighting thats exists as anything but an artistic creation.

75

i had decided to stay out of this, but i usually read your posts ray, and had to comment on this.

I believe that this course is inevitable. it must happen simply because in the heart of the martial arts, there is evolution and change. if martial arts are to continue in our world this has to happen.

76

I think the art is in all the components that make what you do more than just fighting. The world is increasingly becoming more and more violent and this is trickiling down into day to day life in our society.

The art, to me, is not to hold yourself up to someone and compare…not to let the slightest little bothersome thing make you fly off the handle and want to fight like so many I see here…the art is about working through the difficulties and training so that if you should have to fight…then you will. Many people I know think I can fight real well because in several confrontations I have used words, presence, and attitude to disuade and ultimately end confrontations. I haven’t had to raise my fists, all I had to do was work through the problem and accept the aggression of the other as what it is which is fear, and make them understand that there was no reason to fight. I could have entertained them and fought…I’m also not saying that this will always work but it does…

How many people here actually think a war veteran enjoys seeing bodies and violence all around him/her? I’ve taken my lessons well that violence and war are wrong…but sometimes necessary. It seems to me that all the people who want to fight so bad, must fight so often…like the idea of the thrill of knifing someone, these people aren’t artists…they have no self-control, no discipline (which goes well beyond the discipline to train hard everyday), and are quite childish. Many of us live in relative security and our comfort has produced a sickening fear of violence that has lead many to embrace it and want to be a part of it having never fully understood it.

Without a doubt the art means skill in fighting…but it also means the necessary skills to not have to fight and the mental attitude that goes with it.
And please, the guys in the UFC aren’t warriors…they’re fighters. A warrior goes to war not to a sanctioned bout with referees, judges, and rules.

77

I strongly suggest researching indepth MA history and warrior cultures the world over. Fighting competitions have ALWAYS been a part of Martial Arts and was seen as a way to hone real fighting skills and to simply see who was better. The Chinese did it, the Japanese did it, Greeks, Romans, Africans, Native Americans, etc. They fought for spectators and in rings (you can find several historic illustrations of pple fighting in rings or platforms in from of pple) UFC and MMA is society returning to true traditional MA practice. You never really master something until you put it to a test and there is not better way right now to do that in the realm of MA than a MMA match.

The problem is that it make it impossible to separate the wheat from the shaft because you will always have those teachers that hide behind “my art is too deadly” argument that have no skill.

You will never be able to differentiate between them from the teachers that do. However, if you test hands with them then you will know right away. At least that’s true in the internal arts.

The reason MA competitions were done was to keep pple form hiding behind things. The reason pple do it is because in modern society pple can call themselves MArtist and not be put to task. Before if you were a MArtist or seen as a “master” you were likely to be challenged to prove you worth. Those that refused either lost face or were likely forced to fight. (Sometimes directed by higher authority) Now if you call someone out the have excuses or will used Lawyer Fu.

Fighter pilot = martial artist. … kid playing latest Nintendo fighter pilot video game = traditional form expert.

I am so using that.:smiley:

78

Why do people keep saying the world is getting more and more violent? It seems like the world is getting less and less violent.

Just 110 years ago, they used to get into fistfights in the New York stock exchange for example. 150-200 years ago they used to settle disputes of honor in the U.S. (and much of the world) in the form of duels to the death.

Just 50 years ago the cops would think nothing of roughing a guy up instead of taking him to jail. Now they can hardly even hit somebody without getting into trouble.

Life expectancies have never been higher. Murder rates are down all around the world. Fewer people than ever are dying in wars

So why are we thinking that violence is increasing??? It seems like it is actually decreasing.

79

Yeah, without somebody trying to take your head off, you just have no idea if your stuff works. That’s the bottom line.

People who do forms and stuff and think they can defend themselves are totally deluded.

80

The big thing I see today is that the focus is on learning everything, but can you? I see punching, kicking and locking, but the punching is nowhere near the boxer’s, the kicking nowhere near the thai’s and the ground nowhere near the grecco roman’s. So it’s kind of like chop suey.

This does not mean to say you don’t have to understand all those areas, but very hard to be a doctor, lawyer and accountant all at once. Understand and respect the law in your medical practice, pay your taxes as a lawyer and go get your check up as an accountant. Know the strengths of each, but focus on what you do best.

Everyone I’ve been fighting lately – kung fu, to Silat, to Shoot fighter to Thai Boxer to BJJ – automatically goes for the grab and pull down. They’ve been so influenced by martial media today that all they think about is the ground. And the ground is important, but I think we’re going to see a move back toward’s striking soon. Everyone’s ground seems to be cancelling each other out.

Likewise when you hear Royce and Hughes talking about standup, you know something’s wrong. Neither can compare to the boxer’s punching, no way. Even the striking Hughes used to TKO Royce, any karate brown belt’s is better.

Just because X beats X doesn’t mean X is the ultrimate. Yes, X proved very succesful against Y when Y was sleeping. What if Y lwakes up? What if Z comes along? Z is inevitable. As a martial artist you can’t be stagnant and frozen in thinking.