Kungfu cowboy - nothing personal, you provided the opportunity for a little levity. thanks and keep posting that off the wall stuff that you do 
peace
Maybe I am out of it today,
Do other educational systems use a long term contract method?
Does a piano teacher, a violin teacher, a creative writing class, ski lessons, skeet shooting, that sort of thing?
Firearm classes do not use a long term (12 month)contract, a number of boxing gyms work on a pay per you go basis. Land lords are renting you space to live in from which another viable accounts recievable could be renting that space if you were to wig out and break the contract, I think that is a tad different than if two people find themselves on seperate paths with the teachers training methods or personalities.
What do you do if you find a student has trouble paying, serious trouble because of life responsiblities and he has to quit, do you trash his credit score, thus preventing the student from getting other goods and services, do you sue the student for the remaining balance, do you sell off the contract to third party collectors from which the student is sent into a nightmare of phone calls?
These are honest questions not attacks. Just curious to your methods of collecting.
Black Jack -
You pay your tuition to go to college or university before you get to take a single class, you miss any classes and you don’t get that money back.
Firearms classes are entirely different and though they are “pay as you go” they are very short term, often times not much longer than a weekend or two. You cannot gain kungfu in a weekend or two as many of us are well aware.
If you skip on your landlord, you are as much a cretin as skipping on anything really don’t you think? And finally, if a student shows a lot of promise and has little money, it is desirable to have a good student as there are so few of them. PLenty of people who “want” to learn, and a miniscule fraction who are able.
Oh yeah, the boxing thing. I haven’t been to a club where you don’t pay your fees up front before you use the equipment. And if you want a professional coach you will pay for that. A lot of boxing clubs don’t have much more than equipment to use, a ring to use and some of them even have a shower! (-some- of them )
In the end the contract assures that you will show up, show up on time and you will be prepaed to learn, it also assures you that the teacher will show up, show up on time and be prepared to teach. The contract is mutual and it generally doesn’t supercede the rights of the student. If it does, then question it by all means, you as a student shouldn’t get stiffed either because some silk pajama guy has slick business savvy and you don’t.
Read anything carefully that you are asked to sign. If you are unsure ask to take the contract with you and have it read by someone who understands these things before you sign. That is totally reasonable and there shouldn’t be a problem with it, but do understand that distrust is not the best foot forward when signing up for something like martial arts. Now if you are signing an agreement with your ex… well that’s different hahahaha.
peace
I don’t mind contracts, that bind me to paying a month to month rate. It’s the ones that would lock you in for a year or something that I would find to be kind of dangerous. Like those cell phone contracts. I don’t mind paying month to month, if I happen to be late (which would never happen) I would gladly pay a late fee or something if that was in the contract. Much like an apt. contract. But it would be closer to the contract of renting an apt., and not leasing one for a year.
Kung Lek,
I agree on a lot of your points, I am just curious to see how others view it, people have to pay the bills, but the buyer should be aware of what those contracts can contain, as a person who deals with credit on a daily bases, I have seen its damage.
Just to be a smartass, the tution on a college course is only for a term, and yes if you cancel after 2 weeks you don’t get your tution back, but colleges at least the one’s down here don’t require you to sign for a a years worth o’ lessons.
I only have problems with 12 month contracts, I find them a bit alarming for students, 3 month I could agee with, but anything more than that seems to focus more on the almighty greenback than in a students wellbeing.
I still think rogues method, billing backed by a credit card, 30 day notice, is the best bet for a student new in the martial arts.
Well, I don’t oppose 12 months contract. People just need to research more before they sign up one like that. Any longer than that is not needed and suspecious.
Can I ask why a 12 month financial contract is not suspecious?
btw, what kind of contract does a bjj school work with, is there a contract?
Contracts
The instructor should be able to run his business the way he sees fit. If you don’t like contracts and that is what one school requires, don’t go to that school. Shop around for a school that has the facilities and training you want.
And it is NOT the governments role to get anyone the deal they want on martial arts classes! Personally, I don’t want them involved in my training in any way. Once those jerks get started regulating any part of any thing, they don’t stop untill they have it all under their thumb. Then most of what you pay will be to the beaurocracy they set up to keep you in line and tell you what you can and can’t learn as well as how you pay. BS!
The instructor should be able to run his business the way he sees fit.
within the rule of the law and the accepted boundaries of the social construct the school exists in.
remember that when teaching the arts you are dealing with people and not commodoties. They live, they think they breath and perhaps most importantly, they feel.
No one likes to invest their time into long study and feel like they have made a mistake. A contract can be a mutual assurance that this is less likely to take place.
As for the whole government thing, I agree, it would be a lot better if people would just innately treat each other better and not have to be put into a legal position of treating each other well. Sadly, this is not true for a great deal of our so called “peace time” societal activities with each other.
peace
Yeah! A lot of the human race stinks! But thanks to the Human Genome Project, soon we will be creating members that smell however we please! Woo-hoo! Science!
Personally, I find rent contracts and recreational activity contracts very different.
Why do most Sports clubs offer 1yr specials and so on, because they know that most of the people that sign up will not last longer than 2 months on average. It is a marketing ploy to get ready cash, most of them happily sign more people than they could/wish to accomodate.
Same with many a BB Program.
I am also against schools that force a certain amount of attendance and will cancel a contract if attendance falls below a certain level.
This in my Opinion are worse than McDojo as they kinda force a Student to attend, even though he might have other commitments and thus get a student body that is not training with 100% intensity when they do attend.
MA is a recreational activity, a sport even, and should be treated as such.
Some might disagree here, but unless you need MA to earn a living it is thus.
Contracts are fine, but should not be confined to a once of payment and should be flexible enough to allow for changes in a students life.
i.e.; Cancellation, lower fees for fewer classes, flexible training schedule, etc.
I need to go on an overseas Trip for my Company and thus are forced to skip a few lessons.So should I be punished for missing lessons due to being successful in my carreer, that gives me money to allow me to pay my Sifu.
Personally, some of the people that replied got too harsh a stance on what they expect of their students, and what they can dicate in their own kwoon.
You are running a scool that offers a service(MA instruction) in exchange for money and not a cult or military.
Not saying that the student can walk allover you either, but success is finding the golden line between your and your students need.
Peace.
P.S.: Playing with lit matches here.
Originally posted by Black Jack
[B]Can I ask why a 12 month financial contract is not suspecious?
btw, what kind of contract does a bjj school work with, is there a contract? [/B]
Here is my reasoning:
a school should have per month, per season, per 6 month, and per year. As students pay ahead more, discount greater. But alway suggest the beginners to choose a shorter term just in case they find themselves not fit the arts.
Why 12 months not all suspecious? That is there are many people out there who have very stable life schedual, they can make yearly plan. But almost no one would make detail plan above a year. However, if the 12 months plan is the shortest plan, or there are pressure to push long time plan as the 12 months or above, that is highly suspecious.
Do you think that is reasonable? 
I don’t know any BJJ, never took any of that class, can’t make any opinion.
If a educated student agrees on it then a 12 month contract sounds reasonable.
But students can vote with there dollars in the end, which to a commerical matial art school is what really matters, if a person finds a contract to be a tool which is he uncomfortable with, go down the street and find a teacher who does not use one.
I have no problems with contracts. When I had my public school, after the ‘introductory’ private lessons the minimum time a person could join was three months. Why? Because they would see no benefit before that time. By encouraging thier attendance (I wanted them to join AND stay, not just pay dollars for empty floorspace.) they often fulfilled thier commitment enthusiatically. Those that could not fulfill such a commitment often lacked the mental fortitude to learn anyways. I always maintained a high retention and attendance level. I did not see myself as teaching dodge ball lessons, to me it was professional education. You follow the course, and you pay for it just like you would for any other worthwhile training.
I always accomodated special circumstances as well. I let one student who was going into the military pay for three months, but attend six months of training. Another fellow came to me after six weeks and told me he had to move. I cancelled his contract, and his classmates helped him move. But the people who wagged thier tounges about training and decided not to show? They paid anyhow. They learned a valuable lesson, and I got to keep the lights on for my students.
Contracts in and of themselves are not a bad tool. But it does require ethics on the part of the school owner AND the students to use it well. I can’t tell you how many people are surprised when they have to pay for lessons…
HE HE
I have not had to pay for a class for a few years now as my teacher operates a policy where by any one who has been training with him for 10 years gets to train free.
I do volintarily pay for the sunday class (about which my teacher protests every week) as the numbers are very low and as its a 3 hour class its to great.
Wow, I alsways thought of paying for lessons as a form of support for your school and sifu. Schools need things rent, equipment etc.
I don’t expect the sifu to pay for it all out of his own pocket so he can have the “privilage” of teaching me an art i want to learn from him:rolleyes:
I haven’t ever been to a school that requires contracts but if I did I wouldn’t mind paying. I actually think about the choices I make before I jump in with both feet.
You are paying money to keep the school open, trust me I have never heard of legitamate martial arts teachers being rich. Chances are they need the contracts just to get by.
People are to greedy and are ungreatful. In the past schools survived by donations of students, could you see that today? No school’s would be open.
People want big schools with lots of room, they want all the equipment, they want facilities, they want nice changing rooms, lockers, some want showers, etc. They want classes night and day, 7 days a week
most, like the “cowboy” want to just pay when they want to and not when they don’t… yet they fail to see that the two desires are contradictory
you want to pay $50 a month and not sign a contract and pay whenever you want, you are gonna get a school that is space rented in a dance studio for once or twice a week, no equipment and no facilities. And when your instructor goes broke and needs to get a real job, bye bye lessons
Did you go to college and argue with the registrar that it should be less per credit?
Do you go to the supermarket and haggle over the price of rice?
Do you tell your own landlord, “let me stay here this month and I’ll get around to paying you maybe next month”
It’s a wonder people do this profession at all
I would like to think that the bulk of the dislike towards contracts is a result of the fact that most beginning martial art students cannot employ ‘caveat emptor’. They just don’t know what they are walking into, as very few schools are very clear on what they are teaching and for what purpose. The end result is people feel ripped-off.
But IKfmdc -you are so f@cking right. There is a sense of entitlement out there that is really undeserved. People are always amazed when I won’t teach them. They really think the choice is only theirs.
Running an MA School
Some of these points have been mentioned or implied, but I will summarize my input on the subject.
Running a successful MA school is very difficult. Most students are fickle - they come and go quickly. The owner needs to recruit at a certain rate and retain at a certain rate. In addition, to seasonal fluctuations, movies and television cause trends that come and go.
By the time a school conforms to all of the restrictions the MA community pressures to avoid “selling out”, the profit margin is tight.
Some students pay regularly, some don’t. Students show up, or not, cancel without notice, etc, etc.
People don’t seem to want to allow MA schools to market agressively, enforce contracts, make a profit on sales, or charge what the market will bear for services.
People should understand that their school has business obligations that are quite separate from the matter of teaching martial arts. Most good teachers are not very good businessmen. This means that they need an even greater margin for error.
Contracts are a good way for schools to have something resembling consistency and reliable income. How would you like it if you had no idea from one month to the next how much money you were going to make? If you were living paycheck-to-paycheck (as many schools are), you would be in a tough situation.
It takes quite a bit of business planning and financial management to make a purely month-to-month approach work. The pay-per-lesson approach is pretty near to impossible. Would you rather your instructor sat around hassling with these details, or would you rather they didn’t have to worry about it and could concentrate on training?
School owners get frustrated with how fickle people can be. They show up one day and want to be Bruce Lee, then drop classes the next day. Do they call you and tell you they are going to drop? No, for the most part, they just don’t show up, then screen your phone calls.
Do not begrudge MA schools the right to use contracts as a business tool to improve the financial health of their business. Most instructors don’t like having to use them, but really must. Many instructors (myself included) don’t even like that they have to charge money for classes.
Let’s remember that the business and the school are really two separate entities in a way. Neither would exist without the other, but school owners must run the school like a school, and the business like a business. Those two goals are not always in harmony and compromises must be made.
Peace,
Brent Carey
you don’t live in So Cal
Originally posted by awakenwired
I don’t mind contracts, that bind me to paying a month to month rate. It’s the ones that would lock you in for a year or something that I would find to be kind of dangerous. Like those cell phone contracts. I don’t mind paying month to month, if I happen to be late (which would never happen) I would gladly pay a late fee or something if that was in the contract. Much like an apt. contract. But it would be closer to the contract of renting an apt., and not leasing one for a year.
In LA you usually have to sign a year or 2 appartment lease and if you leave early and they cannot fill the apartment you pay. I use contracts but will let students out for good reasons. One of those reasons is notI am lazy and don’t feel like going to class We don’t pressure anyone to join if they don’t want to make a year commitment I don’t want them. For our dojo rank is based not on testing but me weatching them each and every class and when they are ready promoting them. That takes a lot of effort on my part. I don’t want people coming in for a month or 2 and leaving.