[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1084288]Have you ever studied any of the Chiu Chi Man lineage forms? I am sure you know he was also a student of LGY. Their lineage’s forms range from slightly different to completely different forms of the same name. Examples: Black Tiger Crossing (slightly different) and White Ape Steals Peach (completely different form).
An instructor friend who originally learned the WHF versions of the forms is now learning the CCM versions of the forms. He also noted the differences between the two families.
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So your basis for stating that WHF made significant changes to the forms taught to him by LGY is because they differ from those that are now being taught by the CCM lineage. How do you know that it was not CCM that changed his forms? Have you made comparisons with other LGY students? What about the forms of Chung Ho Yin, Wong Gum Hung, Chan Chun Yee, Kwok Cho Chiu? How do they compare to each other?
I have never argued that what we teach has been unchanged since the days of Wong Long. I agree with those who have said two students from the same teacher may express their forms differently. We are not cookie cut-outs of our Sifu’s and actually each person’s flavor should be different…to an extent so long as it is relevant to our body type and personal skills or attributes. But ideally, it should still resemble the same lineage and the techniques should still be close enough. That is not however the examples you gave in your original statement. To go from omitting techniques to then omitting forms to finally creating new forms to reinterpret the theories and principlesm and then give WHF as an example of this. I still do not see any clear proof that support your claims that WHF did this. Did he modify his teaching style? Yes. Did he change the naming conventions for the techniques and quanpu? Obviously. Perhaps even a few techniques and stances were modified as has been argued online before. But that still does not lead me to believe he made any significant changes. Perhaps then you would like to clarify what you consider to be significant changes.
My Sifu has studied with not only several of WHF’s students, but also traveled in China to visit and learn from other LGY students as well. There is nothing in his experiences that would lead to such claims as you are making. My Sifu also made minor modification in his teaching career. For example, a seven star stance was modified for a bow stance because he thought it would be more practical in that technique’s application. But it was full disclosured that he personally made the modification and why. And to me, that is not a significant change.
For someone to be able to make a change to a system, I believe they must have enough proficiency in it to do so. Dare I say, a master of the system so as to be able to judge what needs or could be changed or evolved. In regards to TLQ, I will say again, I believe each lineage can be its own system so I would have to master at least my own lineage before I would dare say to make any significant changes. Otherwise, what is my message to my students and to my Sifu? That what he taught me is wrong? Ineffective? Out dated? If I believed that, I would not have studied with him to begin with. If the change is minor, as in choosing a palm strike over a fist, or a bow stance instead of a horse, those are cosmetic and change nothing about what was taught to me.
So again I ask, what would cause one to think they need to abandon an existing form or even technique for that matter to express theories and principles. Some have argued that forms do not make a style, principles and theories do. I would argue that first and foremost came techniques. Individual techniques that were found to be effective just as is told in the 18 ancestors sonnet. From those techniques were born the fighting theories and strategies. And from those techniques were also born the forms that of themselves also have theories and strategies. Forms are more than just a random collection of techniques, at least in TLQ, and for those who don’t understand that, then you have not been practicing the forms correctly. Perhaps you were not taught how to practice the forms correctly.
I have heard of some other sifus choosing to drop certain forms from their curriculum simply because they don’t like them. That is fine for the every day hobbyist but one of the reasons this style has so many forms and techniques is because there is something for everybody. Not everyone has to master or even learn it all, but if I want to teach it someday, then I have to learn it all in order to have it to teach to the next generation. Otherwise, they would only get what worked for me and what I chose to keep.
What is fraudulent to me is someone who studies a little from here and a little from there and then claim to have mastered enough of the overall broader sense of the system to say that he can make a “significant change” to the system. It would be enough for me in my lifetime to master what has been taught to me. And if one day I should have the opportunity to have my own students, that I will be able to say to them that what they are learning has a deep history and has been authentically passed down from one generation to the next and not something I crafted on my own in my basement or garage.
