Hey everyone,
Does anyone have any websites or personal video of this form?
It seems to be one of the forms that’s not discussed alot. Maybe if we could see some footage it could spark some discussion.
Also, what do you guys think about using a long dowell from like Home Depot or something as a kwan?
It’s a lot cheaper, but not heavy at all. What do you think?
J
Hi Jeff!
I don’t have any footage of the form. But you are right…it doesn’t get discussed much. It also seems that the pole form is like the 2nd half of the dummy…everyone does it a little different and has a bit different choreography in their form. I have the traditional 9 foot teak pole. But I also have several from Home Depot that are about 6 foot long. They were originally sold as the rods that go in closets to hold your clotheshangers. They work fine! I opted for the shorter length because it is more practical and because since the Home Depot version is softer wood, it would tend to bow under its own weight if you used a 9 foot length.
Here are some discussion points I’ll throw out concerning the pole:
Why the deep, traditional CMA stances rather than using actual WCK stances? With the shorter, lighter pole deep stances are not necessary to support the weight of the pole. Using actual WCK stances instead feels much more natural and allows for faster responses and footwork and it reinforces aspects of the empty-hand structure. Why learn a different body structure just for use with the pole?
Why leave instruction in the pole at the end of the WCK curriculum? The pole is really fairly simple and straightforward. It reinforces basic concepts such as defending the centerline and angling as well as teaching use of the waist/kua and providing some strengthening training. Why not introduce it after Chum Kiu?
Why think of the pole only as a conditioning tool for WCK rather than a practical weapon? If you experiment with various lengths of staffs/poles you will find that much of the techniques still work. Even with something as short as 4 feet! But many schools think of the pole only as a way to provide strength conditioning and help power development.
Keith
Hi Keith,
I’m hoping to pick up one of those dowells from Home Depot soon.
Why the deep, traditional CMA stances rather than using actual WCK stances?
I’m just taking a stab at it but I did chen style taji for a short while and the instructor was really good. His explanations of the stance opened my mind to the way your body should move when delivering a punch, kick or just moving naturally. Since the stance is so low in this form, maybe it’s reason is to exagerate our movements so we can see how our hips have to line up with our shoulders, or how we use our knees when shifting, keeping the back straight…
Another thing, that taji instructor told me that my ving tsun stance needed work (so I obviously challenged him to a fight to the death and as you can see, I’m the one posting here not him - kidding for those who don’t now me 
) He was right though. Don’t know if he had any ving tsun knowledge but he told me that a good way to strengthen my ving tsun stance is by using the low horse stance in taji, which is similar to the LDBK stance
J
My two cents…
The form in full is called “Luk Dim Bun Diu Yu Long Kwun”… translated to “6 and a half fishing traveller pole”. It is purported to be an add-on to the original Wing Chun system sometime in history, and not part of the original WC system, but was incorporated via knowledge exchange at some point in time. It is based on the Shaolin Dragon Pole techniques, which is why the execution does not necessarily resemble WC techniques at all. The 6 and a half indicate the specific techniques adopted from the Shaolin system and incorporated into the WC one. It is primarily taught towards the latter part of one’s training because at that stage, the student would have a good enough grasp of WC such that applying foreign structure and techniques (via the pole) would not confuse the student nor would it give the student bad habits.
Regarding the low horse stance, you will need to understand how the pole was used when it was first introduced to WC. It was a long staff (9 ft or longer), somewhat heavy, and used by boat people to steer their boats across rivers. Shorter, weaker poles would either not reach the bottom of the river (they used the poles to push against the bottom of the river so as to move the boat) or they would not be strong enough and would snap. To maintain their balance and to be able to maneuver the boat, the fishermen had to assume lower horse stances. In addition, the Shaolin staff was often executed with power unleashed via low horse stances. The fisherman role was a cover-up frequently used by martial artists who were on the run, and especially trying to escape being captured, whether by the government or otherwise.
A lot of schools don’t teach the long pole or the butterfly knives. I know slt, ck, bj, and mook jong forms. I have never been taught the long pole or the butterfly swords. I know taiji sword from my sifu but not wing chun weapons. YOu have to be with him a pretty long time to learn it. Infact, only one student of his actually completed the whole system.
If I stick in there a few more years I should be able to end up learning the long pole, and maybe eventually the butterfly knives, who knows. I think a lot of sifus do not teach their students that stuff unless they plan on teaching themselves, then again thats just my opinion.
I have seen the forms practiced in my kwoon, and my sifu has shown all of us some basic weapon fighting techniques we can practice.
As for the different foot work compared to unarmed wing chun, IMO, it has to do with distance and moving at longer ranges. The different foot work teaches you how to move at longer distances, and how to bridge the gap between the distances from long to short range.
Some thoughts-
the basic stance of Wing Chun- the pigeon toed high stance re-inforces certain mechanics, adduction potentiating core stabilization.
Wide low stances with the feet turned out (hips open) favor recruitment of the gluts and hamstrings- which can be trained to be some of the most powerful muscles in the body, and are the core of explosive power generation in most, if not all, athletic pursuits. Pole drills done from these stances can be used to develop said explosive power (several of the ones I’ve seen are variants on the clean, essentially). These drills, done at constant height and below parallel seem to require hip strength and flexibility not necessary at larger hip angles, but which presumably is useful at said angles (higher stance).
Pole training, as I understand it, attempts to develop attributes through repetition, using a relatively small load (though a larger one than the weight reflects when you consider both the length of the lever on your body, and the average bodyweight of those people who were using it as a tool back in the day- under 140 is a fair guess). As such, it’s an attempt to develop speed-strength-endurance.
Andrew
There are a few Pole clips out there.
Here’s a collection of what the forum has offered over the years (Commentary does not reflect the actual opinions of anyone except maybe me.)
Yip Man: “See? See? Do You See?”
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3PIG8I9HIP49R27L5RT2HQF4TF
Yip Ching: “This is what my father’s metaphor meant.”
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3GJYAEFY0XFCD259IG1NBIVDYC
Tang Yick: “Hey, here’s Yuen Kay San’s metaphor!”
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0HRXDMY3I4XJZ0D13NAVZH9CXW
A Sifu in the YKS family: “Yeah, it goes like this.”
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=38XPY60DO3QWQ17EV89CJPAVRO
Weng Chun: “Screw Metaphors.”
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0JSCXYUDTRPMY1P80RBKQWX2BH
Is there anything else out there?
Au Revoir
CSP
Hi !!!
This video is from our site, Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun International - European Branch and performers name is Chen Chun Sheng Sifu, student of late Grandmaster Wong Wu Fong, aka “Mai Gei Wong”.
So its not “unknown lineage” 
…
greetings
yw
Xiao3 Meng4,
Thanks for the clips
J
YiWan: Thanks for the info. I’ll update my file.
My Take…
The “arrow horse” stance for the Lok Dim Boon is used “mainly” to lower your center of gravity as the weight is far from your body.
Kpm mentions - " Why the deep, traditional CMA stances rather than using actual WCK stances? With the shorter, lighter pole deep stances are not necessary to support the weight of the pole."
Yes but what about the weight of a weapon pressing your pole etc etc…
in actual USE you pole is touching a force isnt it ? do you stick pole with your kung fu brothers ? this is the reson IMO.
Unless you just want to be able to SHOW rather than USE. in this case its addequate.
I DONT reccomend using Dowell (even if its tappered) - why -
It gives you a false sence of energy transfer, when you use your elbow power to make the tip move its over emphasised because the dowell is to flexible, so wow you can make dowell tip move the size of a football but pick up a VT Lok Dim Boon and it does nothing, transfering no energy through the tip. ( no penetration power)
Its like a VT punch or Jum Sao with no inch power…thats not VT its just a normal punch.
So i think not only would it be ‘not so good’ but in fact ‘detrimental’ to your ability to use the VT pole. You make the call !
KPM also states "Why leave instruction in the pole at the end of the WCK curriculum? The pole is really fairly simple and straightforward "
Im not picking on you or wanting to argue this is just MO, but if you find this is the case you are probably not getting the real deal…Or maybe your just very good !
I dont know you so i leave it open, but Lok Dim Boon is no easy task to learn, if this is the case, why is it not shown everywhere and taught to every student of a VT master ? Why would it be called the “King of the weapon”…nothing comes easy in Kung Fu unless you train hard.
Just MO.
Hi Liddel!
Yes but what about the weight of a weapon pressing your pole etc etc…
in actual USE you pole is touching a force isnt it ? do you stick pole with your kung fu brothers ? this is the reson IMO.
—But in WCK we learn not to use force against force whenever possible. Sure we do “chi kwan.” If the partner is “weighting” your pole…you go around!
I DONT reccomend using Dowell (even if its tappered) - why -
It gives you a false sence of energy transfer, when you use your elbow power to make the tip move its over emphasised because the dowell is to flexible,
—No. The dowel that Jeff and I were talking about has about a 2 inch diameter and is not that flexible.
KPM also states "Why leave instruction in the pole at the end of the WCK curriculum? The pole is really fairly simple and straightforward "
Im not picking on you or wanting to argue this is just MO, but if you find this is the case you are probably not getting the real deal…Or maybe your just very good !
I dont know you so i leave it open, but Lok Dim Boon is no easy task to learn, if this is the case, why is it not shown everywhere and taught to every student of a VT master ? Why would it be called the “King of the weapon”…nothing comes easy in Kung Fu unless you train hard.
—I said “simple and straightforward”, not “easy.” IMHO it reinforces and assists in the learning of the core WCK structural elements. A student may not necessarily “master” it right away, but being introduced to it earlier may improved their progress and understanding of the system. My point is that a Chum Kiu level student should already have the WCK structure down well enough to understand and benefit from the pole methods. It drives home the centerline and gate theories in a very “straightforward” manner as well as giving a better understanding of using the kua in power generation.
Keith
Just MO.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough
KPM you make some good points,
You said -
“IMHO it reinforces and assists in the learning of the core WCK structural elements. A student may not necessarily “master” it right away, but being introduced to it earlier may improved their progress and understanding of the system.”
I can agree with that in theory, but really we already have enough to think about at this level dont you think, would adding more not be too much to ingest at once, i think it would for most people.. i understand that like you point out good things take time and “A student may not necessarily “master” it right away” … but i think its better to concentrate on one thing at a time one by one.
Some people are impatient thesse days.
Also i think its like this because we still hold alot of ‘the history’ in our teaching methods. Our pole long ago was only taught to special students or the next one in line after the head honcho, it was kept secret because it was thought of then like now as “the king of the weapon”. so we still have it at the tale end of our system. Some interesting things youve mentioned…
I’ve enjoyed this conversation…
:rolleyes: