Lohan Hand Sets ?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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Can anyone (NS :wink: ) tell me what the names are for the handsets of Northern Shaolin Lohan Moon System ?

There are a few lineages of Lohan, one from Gold Arhat etc, but the lineage I am most interested in knowing the names are that of Sun Yu Fung of 1920’s.

I believe one name may be “Subduing Tiger Fist” which is the same name as a famous Hung Gar set, no relation obviously.

To my knowledge Lohan hand sets are mainly described numericaly these days, but it would be most interesting to learn their original names.

Any help in this question would, as usual, be most greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

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subdue the tiger

I have an 18 Lohan set with amove called subdue the tiger.
The first move of the set is called eagle siezes the gullet.

There is another very old set called 18 lohan which has some very old books written by Sheng Xiao Dao Ren. I am looking for more info on this.
The first move is called immortal raise hands
2. tyrant raises tripod
3.left and right stick in a flower

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Lohan Style - Subduing Tiger Fist

Hi Tainan Mantis,

How are you ?

I believe that “Subduing Tiger Fist” was a Northern Shaolin Lohan Moon/Men form coming from the line of Sun Yu Fung “Saber King of Seven Provinces”. One of his students a Miss/Mrs Lin Shao Li taught this form in Hong Kong.

I notice also that this form is practiced in the Mizong Quan (Mi Jhong Kuen/Lost Track Fist) and Pigua Quan (Pek Kwa Kuen?/Chopping Hanging Fist) sects.

I dont know if this means that the three styles come from the same root, or if, more likely, the form was transferred through mutual exchanges.

I am not completely sure if this set is from Sun Yu Fung’s line, but it seems most likely since his student Lin Shao Li was practicing and teaching it.

I would be most interested in knowing if any other Northern Shaolin Lohan lineages also practice this form, particularly forum members Northernshaolin, R.(shaolin) and Ffab’s line.

Tainan Mantis, do you know if there are any books or videos available on your version of Subduing Tiger Fist ? and also the origin and lineage of it.

Also, could it perhaps have been passed down into the Praying Mantis system in the pre 1950 Chin Woo/Jing Mo Association, or in one of the KMT Central Martial Art Academies in Shanghai or Guangzhou ?

Any thoughts and opinions would be great.

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

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Hi Buddhapalm
It’s r.(shaolin) under a new name -rik
They(the managers of the forum) cut me off so I’m appearing under a new
name. That’ll teach eh’m : - ))))

As far as Lohan sets being named numerically. This was not the Shaolin tradition. IMO that was the result of some people forgetting the names and histories by using ‘nicknames’ or numbers for forms or they were simply not told.

The library at Shaolin Si recorded hundreds of forms. Names and even descriptives of individual techniques were very likely part of this record. Because it is doubtful that any one person mastered all of them has contributed to the result that different lineages do not have identical form listing.
As well many ‘styles’ at Shaolin often had more than one form. Shortened names or ‘nick names’ could refer to any or all the forms in a group. An example in our lineage the term ‘wuxing’ could refer to any or all of 12 forms.

Our ancestral master, the Venerable Yiching, a librarian (Tsang-chu) at Shaolin Monastery, past on a number of skills to us which are conceptually divided in different ways: as the three skills; Long Shou - Dragon Hand, Hu Shou - Tiger Hand, and Long Hu Zheng Sheng - Fighting between Dragon and Tiger; (Wu Xing) 5 elements / 5 elementary hand formations and; tactics imitating 12 animals. These are taught in 12 forms, of which ten are hand-forms.
Althought the term ‘wuxing’ appears only in the formal name of two of them, because the concept is included in all ten, students will often say they are doing “wuxing” even when doing the others.
Others would say they are doing “Hu Shou” or even the “12 animals” all referring to any one of the same 10 forms. The end result is that common names referring to different forms or name variation referring to different forms become part of the common vocabulary.

It gets better. Hei Hu Shou is also a style in Shaolin Lohan Men. Like the wuxing, it has a number of forms, which are often nick named “Hu Shou” as well. Anyway this creates a bit of a mess.

A couple of years ago I did a comparison of our form names with the Gu Ru Zhang’s lineage and there were a number of crossovers. Of couse I have no idea whether these are the same as I’ve never seen them done. - other than ‘ Tan Tui Shr er lu” which I have seen, and is basically the same.

r.

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Hi Rik

Hi Rik,
They cut you off, shame on those bad boys. I hope it wasn’t intentional.

I saw another one of your posts and realized you had changed your name. I hope all is well.

Your information about the naming and changing of names of forms is most interesting. It really does make research difficult.

I have three forms with the same root as those of member NorthernShaolin, but somewher the names were changed, eg:
Duan Da - Jin Gan Quan/Gum Gong Kuen
Bak Kwa Dao - BaMen Dao/Bak Moon Dao
Ground Demon Staff - Shaolin Secret Pole

The forms are basically the same, but the names have been changed, either from my Grandmaster or from his teacher. The answer is lost in the clouds of antiquity.

If Subduing Tiger Fist is an original Shaolin form/style, then it could have been passed down separately to Lohan, Mizong and Pigua through different channels from the same source - Shaolin. Or as mentioned it could be an exchange scenario. It is hard to tell.

I did not think that a simple numerical description of forms was standard, and that it must be due to another reason that the forms are not named. It would be most interesting to see the names of the 10 or 18 Lohan sets of Sun Yu Fung and his teacher Monk Yuan Tong T’an. I believe NS would be able to help me on this one.

Rik, you mentioned your ancestral master, the Venerable Yiching being a librarian in Shaolin. What a job ! I would love to have been in his shoes :slight_smile: . I look forward to one day seeing your branch of Shaolin, it will be an exciting day. I just need to get things organized here first before I fly up.

You mention 12 animals. I had read that originally Shaolin had 12 animals (correlating numericaly to the Chinese Zodiac of course), but somehow, perhaps due to governmental extermination, only five animals (stylists) survived “a la Southern Shaolin”. Doesn’t Hsing Yi also follow 12 animals, and isnt Hsing Yi from Shaolin via General Yueh Fei (or someone crediting him). This is a whole other topic, but interesting anyway.

By the way you mention Dragon Hand and Tiger Hand. Do these have colors, such as Green Dragon, White Tiger. There is a famous saying from the secret underworld societies derived (mythologically) from Shaolin, it says in Cantonese “Jor Ching Lung, Yau Bak Fu” meaning “Left side Green Dragon, Right side White Tiger”. Just wonder if this is related.

I had always assumed that Northern Shaolin was less animal based, and that the animal names and movements were developed only in Southern Shaolin. What you are saying is most interesting and worthy of further research and discussion. I am sure many of our Southern Shaolin brothers will be most curious and intrigued to know about what you are saying. Same goes about the Five elements formations.

While we are on these subjects, how about the Six Harmony (Liu He) theory. Does that pervade a lot of your curriculum and martial theory. It is claimed to have been a Shaolin theory.

Anyway I have to run, talk to you soon.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

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Names of Lo Han sets

Buddhapalm,

Greeting again,

When I conversed with one of Sun Yu Fung’s 12 disciples, he told me that Sun yu Fung did not talk too much about the names of the sets. Originally he learned 108 Lo han sets and called them rows instead of sets. According to SYF’s teacher, Monk Yuan Tung T’an, the Lo Han was known as Northern Shaolin Yen Lo Han or third generation of Lo Han.

Sun was not an educated person and so he never wrote anything down about his style nor did he like to talk about his past. Out of the 108 NSLH sets he only taught 18 sets. The students refered the sets as numbers only. Because of the age differences between the students and SYF, there was not much dialog and maybe many of the students felt it was not their place to ask such questions. Too bad.

Just before WW II, (1936-37) one of his disciples, Wang Hisa Hsia, (Sorry about the spelling), condensed the 18 sets to 10 and named the sets like, Practice Hands, Practice Steps, Humble Tiger, Croching Dragon, etc. I was never able to secure all 10 names but from what I was told, these 10 sets were not part of the original 18 sets of SYF.

Now Lin Shao Li once was quotated Monk Yuan Tung gave Sun Yu Fung a manual but none of the 12 disciples have ever seen it. And as it was pointed out to me, Why would he give SYF a manual when SYF cannot read or write?

But still I continue to search for this now ‘secret manual’ because it would answer many unanswer questions that I have.

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Tradition tells us that Shaolin Wu xing forms were composed by Bai Yu Feng, a martial artist, from Shenxi Province, famed for his expertise with the narrow-blade sword. As you know, Shanxi Province is even further north than Song Shan Shaolin. This is the same province that Ji Long Feng was from. Ji Long Feng is being given credit for developing XingYi. Like Xingyi, Song Shan Shaolin Dragon/Tiger forms*(see below) are based on the five fist forms or “wu xing.” and the twelve animals.
The saying “ Subduing the Dragon and Taming the Tiger” and other
similar saying are commonly used in relationship to to Song Shan Shaolin martial arts and the Northern school of Chan Buddhism.

What Bai Yu Feng did was synthesis animal styles that were already practiced at Shaolin Monastery. The Governmental extermination story you mention has its source in the south. It was during the Mongol Dynasty that secret societies began claiming connection with Buddhism mainly motivated by political considerations. In the North however Song Shan Shaolin Monastery consciously nurtured a close relationship with the Imperial Yuan government, and this includes the other so call “Alien” Dynasties such as Liao, and Chin. . Its political astuteness was one of the secrets of its longevity. Without going into this, I might point out, these "alien’ dynasties were, for political and cultural reasons, generally supportive and on the whole favorable of Buddhism. Suffice to say the Shaolin Monastery at Song Shan had a close relationship with the Imperial Government.
Song Shan Shaolin Monastery, was an important Imperial, monastery, built and funded by it and preformed specific governmental functions.

The Dragon refered to in these forms is the “Divine Dragon”
Golden and with 5 claws - Shen Long

*These forms have an order.

  1. Shen Long Chi Zhao also called Shen Long Xian Gua
  2. Meng Hu Chu Dong
  3. Hei Hu Bai Wei
  4. Wu Xing Long Shou
  5. Wu Xing Hu Shou
  6. Long Hu Zheng Sheng
  7. Shen Long Teng Kong
    8.Shen Long Hua Shui
    9 Er Long Fen Zhu
  8. Shen Long Shier Bu

As far as common form names with Gu Ru Zhang’s lineage.
Some of the same ones that I remember off hand included:
Lohan Kai Men - open the door
Ji Ben Dong Zuo
Tan tui Shier Lu
****ou Quan - Rock Fist
Xiao and Da Hong Chang Quan
Hie Hu Shou - Black Tiger
Tou Zhan Quan also called Tuo Ji
She Quan Snake Fist
Ba Xian Jian - Eight immortal sword
Qi Xing Wen Jian - Seven star sword

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NorthernShaolin

Have you hear of the “12 disciples” concept in Shaolin?

r.

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18 Lohan books

buddhapalm,
There are 3 books on 18 lohan that I know of.

  1. Just the form, looks like Southern
  2. 1 man 2 man and definition of each lohan’s techniques. Taught in my school
  3. From Sheng Xiao Dao Ren 1764. Huang Hanhsun published an explanation in HK many years ago. This is part of our mantis, but other styles have it also.

This version is part of PM as this monk did the mantis style. In his manuscript he lists several forms and movement names plus technicl explanations.
This style doesn’t have fancy names for forms.
Examples
-Short Strike 9981 changes

-Praying Mantis Hits -6 Rounds( I believe this is one of, if not the oldest known PM form)

-9 Turns 18 Falls -20 Rounds

Got class, more later.

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deleted

buddhapalm,
Your last e-mail was deleted by accident and now I don’t have your e-mail address.

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12 disciples

rik,

Please tell me about the concept of the shaolin 12 disciples.

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Hi NorthernShaolin.
I found it curious in that you mentioned it twice in your post above.

r.

Monk Yuan Tung gave Sun Yu Fung a manual but none of the 12 disciples have ever seen it

with one of Sun Yu Fung’s 12 disciples
Monk Yuan Tung gave Sun Yu Fung a manual but none of the 12 disciples have ever seen it

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Curious indeed

rik,

Yeah it is strange that his disciples never saw but one of his regular students states that the manual exist.

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Hi NorthernShaolin,
I think the existance of this manual if very probable.

Private manuals were not uncommon in many schools, however these were generally treated as private. In our tradition as well there was a ‘Shaolin records book’ which was passed to ‘inside students’ who would legitimately teach the next generation of students.

I was surprised, well actually find it hard to believe that Sun Yu Fung had only 12 students. I was guessing that you were talking about ‘senior’ or inside ‘close’ students.

I was curious if Sun Yu Fung’s tradition had any limits on the number of close generational students.

kind regards,
rik

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Tainan Mantis, Rik and NorthernShaolin

Hi Tainan Mantis,
Sorry for the delay. My e-mail is teleka@pacbell.net. Thanks.

R. and NorthernShaolin,
When you mention manuals, are you meaning Quan Po Charts (names of movements) or pictographic and descriptive manuals ?

NorthernShaolin,
Could Sun Yu Fung have given the manual to his son, who was killed in the war with the Japanese ? Then perhaps it was lost.

Maybe someone has it but does not want to bring it out.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

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Hi Buddhapalm,

Printing of books has a long history in Buddhism. In fact the oldest book in world, is a copy of the Diamond Sutra found in the 1000 Buddha’ Cave in T’un Huang and is dated 868.

Apparently these “quan pu” or manuals in the form of “books”( shu) documenting martial forms in Shaolin Library numbered in the hundreds (not very portable). As a side note sometimes forms (very portable) in Shaolin are called “books” (shu).

As well as these manuals there was also an number books that were not manuals but records related to martial arts.
These included, a record/ catalogue “lu” that listed form names and histories. As well, there are references to a record of Shaolin monk’s military service, called “A Record of Shaolin Buddhist Monks’ Brilliant Military Deeds”

r.

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Interesting Thoughts

rik,

SYF had many students but he named only 12 disciples out of hundreds. When I asked one of the disciples why only 12, he answered that Jing Wu in Canton had actually two programs. The main supporting program was for students who came to the school during the posted times for classes which was usually in the mornings after 8am and the afternoon after 2PM. The other program was for lived-in students who cleaned, cooked and served the master of the school. These students were, in returned, given special lessons by the master himself and not from one of the student instructors who really taught the main classes. Their class started at 5AM to 7Am with the master, break for breakfast, help assist or continue to learn with the 8Am to 11 AM class, then break for lunch. Work on some duties around the school, return to the 2pm to 4 PM class, break for dinner and return for private lessons at 7PM to 10 PM with the master. The lived in students, who became as such only thru recommendations, became the disciples. Since there were only 12 lived-in students they became his 12 disciples.

Buddhapalm,

Your theory about SYF’s son and the manual may be right but deep down, I hope rik right.

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Dear NorthernShaolin,
I just re-read my post - it reads badly. Pardon its tone - it was not intended that way. Thank you for the for sharing the details on the Jin Woo school. Was the Shanghai school run the same way?
r.

“SYF had many students but he named only 12 disciples out of hundreds”.

Out of hundreds only 12 close disciples?
Here are my thoughts.

I don’t think that a man who dedicated his life to being a Shaolin student and teacher would based his decision on limiting his close disciples based on living room in the school.

Maybe, out of hundreds of students only 12 were good enough or committed enough.

It is a strange coincidence that in our tradition the maximum number of close disciples is 12.

kind regards,
r.