Literati Tradition: Neidan Meditation

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Qigong and Meditation
21

bored with EF? striking out for new territory? well, welcome and enjoy - the “flavor” over here is a bit different, but the discussions are lively, a you no doubt already have experienced…

all very interesting, some nice material; but as I have always maintained, any “esoteric” practice, if it indeed does have an effect on the totality that is the organism, can and necessarilly must be describeable from the perspective of so-called “western” anatomical/physiological processes - it may lack the integrated and cultural flavor, but it can be done; from my own personal experience engaging in these practices, I am comfortable using both paradigms, taoist and skepticist - they are neither mutually exclusive rather, they run in parallel - the mistake is to bounce from one to the other when lacks facility with either; in my personal experience, the profoundness of internal practice is not in anyway diminsihed by utilizing a “western” approach - in a way, describing it in terms more common to this culture enhances the “profound ordinaryness” of what is occuring - it actually takes out the “distraction” that can be the esoteric aspect, which is what many are drawn to rather than the simplicity that is suchness - but, as the saying goes, “the foreign ginger tastes more interesting”…

22

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;795036]The same result occurs with Alchemical practices. The individual becomes bound by a clinging to an unnecessary methodology rather than transcending all methodologies. If one is clear that the method they follow is merely a tool to be discarded eventually, and the method fits their temperament, benefits may be gained, however why would one want to learn to swim with an anchor around their waist when they could learn to swim more easily and effectively without it.[/QUOTE]

that’s another way of putting it

23

Greetings..

First, i would be pleased if someone, anyone, would actually differentiate between philosophical Taoist practices and the aberration thereof, referred to, generally, as Religious Taoism..

Second, it has come to pass, after more than 5 years on this forum it is nearing the point of diminishing returns.. psuedo-intellectual nit-picking over minutia.. “where have all the flowers gone”..

So, if you’re spending so much time talkin’ it, you ain’t spendin’ enough time doin’ it..

I think i’ll take a sabatical, actually “living it” sounds pretty good right now..

Be well, ALL…

24

In response to Doc

Not to be a bother, and I apologize for extending the off topic conversation, but honestly. You read them in the tone you think we are typing in. Thus, you cannot be the judge of how we actually meant to reply, and were quite rude in your responsive comments.

In truth, I feel you are still being quite rude, acting as though everything you say is instantly correct and moral. So I end this post with a quote that I like myself, “He who believes he knows everything knows nothing.”

P.S. In case you read this in the wrong tone, I was responding in a calm, ‘hope you understand what I’m saying’ manner. I was in no way intending to sound snide, angry, annoyed, or otherwise off tone. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I look forward to conversing with you further.

25

OK, Daniel, whatever! :stuck_out_tongue: I’m rude…you and Scott are the very embodiment of respect and courtesy. :rolleyes: So can we just move forward with the discussion now? :confused:

Doc :smiley:

26

Well, I think the article is certainly interesting. It is quite well written. Althought I can’t say I agreed with it altogether, I think it has given a good idea of what is involved in what it posited to be Neidan Meditation.

I believe enlightenment comes in many forms and there are more ways then one way to experience it. Whether it is rational or mystic tradition, the disciplines are equally vigourous and the goal is to transcend that which is relative existence and not not experience the absolute, that which is beyond existence, would be. I think that’s important footing in this particular discussion.

Mantis108

27

my opinion is… (JUST MY OPINION!)… no one can reach ‘enlightenment’ or ‘immortality’ while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy… i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.

by the way, how would one seperate from society… what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?.. really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.

thanks

28

[QUOTE=tai chi hermit;795226]my opinion is… (JUST MY OPINION!)… no one can reach ‘enlightenment’ or ‘immortality’ while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy… i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.
thanks[/QUOTE]

one of the more famous Ch’an personalities was a guy by the name of Layman Pang - he used to torture the local monks who were all sent to him by their teachers to learn from him because Pang was fully awakened and realized; he was ahouseholder, an “ordinary” guy, and that was no obstacle for him - in fact it was the method he used, his own daily life;

see, the problem is that if you presupose what enlightenement is “supposed” to be like, then you are already off - likewise, thinking that one can or can’t become enlightened in everyday life means you have already set yourself a precondition for it; on the contrary, it is certainly possible - enlightenment - being awake - is essentially seeing things such as they are, and responding based on awareness in stead of recting bsed on habit; it’s not to say that time alone on reatreat isn’t beneficial to this, but it is not a pre-requisite;

[QUOTE=tai chi hermit;795226]by the way, how would one seperate from society… what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?.. really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.[/QUOTE]

now, immortality is another story - first off, be aware that this is more of Daoist concept than Buddhist - in Ch’an, there is no attempt to become immortal or even prolong life - to the Ch’an practitioner, the Daoists are just a bunch of walking corpses whose attachment to their bodies is a hindrance to achieving full awakening; anyway, to do immortal (or, more realistically, longevity) practice, there are certain things, as I have been told, that occur; one, people do typically isolate themselves - this makes sense, as it decreases stimulation in general, and also cuts down significantly on exposure to things like germs, pollution, etc.; then you find the right spot with an active water source (I mean, you wouldn’t go out to the desert, would you?); as for food, there is a practice known as bai gu - which is a qigong practice by which one spontaneously radically decreases or stops intaking food completely - my teacher, when doing it, survived very well on a spoonful of rice a day (and he did this living in NYC, BTW!) - the reason he went back to regular eating, was that he no longer had the need to participate in meals with his family, and he didn’t want not to do that; anyway, what I have also been told is that when one fully comitts to this process, one’s basic physiology changes in several ways - anatomically, the disgestive system becomes a closed system - the lower digestive tract seals itself off; second, the physiology changes such that your body starts to do its own form of photosynthesis - it gets it’s energy rom the sun like a plnant - now, don’t get me wrong - this is what I have been told, I’ve never seen it, and certainly there are some issues of credulity to be considered - but the possibillity is intriguing…
on the other hand, more pragmatically, if you want to do a solitary retreat for a period of time, the traditional “proptocol”, as far as the Ch’an monks I have known personally who did this, you spend your days in seclusion, except for one meal a day brought to you by someone who is technically your monitor, your “link” so to speak, whose job is to make sure you are ok, etc; depending on your level, again food is a variable - some monks were known for eating a minimal amount of rice flour, which they would eat by dipping their hand into a bowl of water then into the rice flour and make a small ball of dough which they’d pop into their mouths from time to time

in general, though, I’d suggest trying a 7 day retreat at a local center before monking-out for years on end - it sound very romantic, but by the third day you might be ready to loose it, so make sure you know what you are in for - living with yourself with only the “noise” in your mind can be maddening until it settles down (usually by the 4th day…)

good luck

29

[QUOTE=tai chi hermit;795226]
my opinion is…no one can reach ‘enlightenment’ or ‘immortality’ while carrying out a normal life in this society. how would one seperate from society… what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?

[/QUOTE]

Good points, and practical questions. :slight_smile: This is exactly why most spiritual adepts in virtually every religious spiritual tradition since ancient times have withdrawn from life within the population at large to devote themselves to their spiritual practices and pursuits in seclusion, especially amidst Nature. This is not to say that it is impossible to pursue profound spiritual self-realization while married or otherwise living amongst normal society, but only that the challenges are more simple and the distractions are fewer when living in seclusion. :wink:

The Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Islamic Sufi, and Taoist Traditions have all traditionally favored a cenobitic lifestyle of the religious community living in a monastic setting adjacent to a church, temple, or mosque. Such communities usually depend on self-supporting communal industry or work, oftentimes also coupled with dependence on alms or charitable donations to the community.

Each of these Traditions, however, also has a rich history of at a small percentage of its members retiring further into seclusion to pursue their spiritual self-realization in a eremetical lifestyle model, that of a hermit monk living apart from the main monastery in caves, huts, cabins, and so forth, but still connected to the religious foundation that they are originally associated with. And in some Traditions, such individuals may become mendicant monks or friars like St. Francis of Assisi or many Buddhist monks, who constantly travel from place to place on pilgrimage to Holy Sites, depending on alms begging along the way to provide their food, lodging, clothing, and so forth.

The Taoist Tradition has typically favored the eremetical or hermit life in remote mountain areas or in secluded forest and jungle environments where few, if any, other people reside in order to guarantee minimal distractions or responsibilities and obligations to other people. Like hermit monks in other Traditions, this leaves them free to engage in a more serious, long-term practice without any external inpediments to potential progress and ultimate achievement. :cool:

Doc

30

Hi sanjro_ronin,

Are you refering to “jing/semen retention” for example ?
I have heard concerns voiced by urologists and such in regards to this practice.

Well that is one example. There are actually many examples that could be cited. I am not saying Alchemical Practices have no value, but neither are they the be all and end all. Many of the practices are contrary to the natural processes of Tao. It is a natural process to expel semen. This indicates it is safe and has no inherent detrimental effect on the person, assuming there is no “long term” excessive expulsion. Contrast this with hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging is useful at times, but the body has a built in mechanism to stop the excess. This is because it is detrimental to the bodily system to bleed to death. There is a balance to Tao and a balance to the bodily systems. If one is in tune with their body then they will be able to apply the principles of Tao according to the signals their body provides. As it is said in Ch’an, when hungry I eat, when tired I sleep, well one could add to that, when experiencing sexual desire, I have sex. Sex is a natural process. When we deny/ignore the natural processes of our body it is unhealthy and contrary to Tao.

Alchemical methods tend to focus on the leaves of the tree in an attempt to get to the root. There is nothing inherently wrong with this from a certain perspective and it is the perspective that one brings to the activity that is important. In the end, Alchemical processes are skills of the mind designed to alter the mind’s manner of perceiving reality. It starts with the body and moves to the mind so to speak. The thing is, the manner in which it addresses the body is through the mind, so why not just start with the mind since this is the goal and inherently where all the action takes place to begin with.

Consider a person’s goal to travel to a certain destination. Most often the desire is to get there in the quickest manner possible. This means that the direct route is the quickest and the most efficient path to take. However, there are those who choose to take the scenic route. For whatever their reasons they are not concerned with an efficient means of arriving at their destination. There is nothing inherently wrong with this method as long as they are aware they are taking the long way around. Some people enjoy meandering and there is nothing inherently wrong with this. However, if you think you are taking the short path when in fact you are taking the long path, it seems important to have that fact revealed so that you can make a more informed decision about the path you are choosing. Alchemical practices are a long path that takes a lot of self-discipline. One must sacrifice many natural human experiences and ignore, they would say transcend, natural bodily needs. This is not in accord with Tao which seeks balance in all things.

Alchemical practices develop certain skills that do not necessarily provide one with the result they are hoping for. Skills do not in and of themselves lead to spiritual growth. If that were so then experts in any field of endeavor would acquire spiritual maturity along with their skills. Michael Jordan is a master of Basketball, but that does not automatically make him a master of life or spiritual matters.

On the other hand there is a long tradition in Japan and China of using skills as an aid in developing spiritual insight. One must understand that the method is a tool we use to achieve the goal; it is not the goal in and of itself. The tool may just as easily become a hindrance if it contains superfluous exercises or if we cling to it unecessarily.

31

[QUOTE=Doc Stier;795061]Scott:

Thanks, Dad! :stuck_out_tongue: But contrary to your esteemed evaluation of the situation, I responded in kind to the attitude I received for merely posting some great links to interesting articles, without commenting on the articles before anyone had a chance to review them. Thus, my initial comments to you, Daniel, and NJM were essentially a ‘mirror’ which simply reflected the quality of energy that was directed towards me back to its original source. :eek: I neither want or need such energy in a leisure time activity such as posting on this or any other forum. Hence, the “poor attitude” rests squarely with those who put such energy in motion to begin with. As such, there really is no hypocritical behavior originating from me. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Hi Doc,

I am always glad to help, but you are not listening. Daniel, NJM and I were not being snide. That determination is a reflection of your own mind ONTO what has been written. It is your assessment of the comments that has led you to your conclusions and your assessment is a reflection of your own attitude. I am pointing out that your poor attitude is what has caused the conflict not the comments posted and I am doing so in an appropriate manner. It is you that determined the posts of NJM and Daniel were negative without adequate evidence. I am pointing that out. It is you that basically referred to NJM as being a fool. I merely pointed out that it is your response to him that made you appear the fool yourself.

Once again, NJM asked a straight forward question. He wanted to know if you are a bot. It is you that became offended by his question. You ASSUMED he was being rude, yet there was no indication in his comment that was his intent. He included no “rolled eyes” smilies, just a simple straight forward question. The poor attitude was reflected in your response NOT his question. You included a “mocking grin”, “rolled eyes”, and the “mad” smilies. These along with your actual words leave little doubt as to your intent. Within NJM’s question there lies much room for interpretation as to his intent. You have chosen to perceive his comment in the negative, assuming that was his intent. NJM questioned your motive, this is not an inherent insult, yet you assumed this to be the case. Your assumption is a reflection of your own attitude, NOT his. You perceive the glass as half empty according to this circumstance so to speak.

Daniel’s question could be taken as an attempt at humor. That is how I took it. But you, with a chip on your shoulder to begin with, took it as a negative response as well. There was no overt insult, no “rolled eyes” smilie included, just a straight forward question, while your response once again was left little doubt as to your intent to ridicule.

It is you that assumed them to be giving you negative energy because of how YOU interpreted their comments. I, without any emotional investment in this thread, perceived their comments in a different light. How we perceive circumstances is a reflection of the attitude WE bring to the event. Your responses have reflected your inherent negative/defensive attitude. Even if the comments of NJM and Daniel were overtly snide, the manner in which one chooses to respond is a reflection of their own attitudes and maturity. Since your posts imply a spiritual interest I recommended that you apply spiritual principles to your own life. That is lead by example. If you do not want to be treated in a snide manner then do not respond in a snide manner. Return gentleness with gentleness, but also return hostility with gentleness. This is how the overall environment is elevated. To return hostility with hostility works against your stated purpose of elevating the discussion, it tends to increase the overall hostility.

[QUOTE=Doc Stier;795061]You may have noticed that I also responded to others on this thread in a manner akin to their own non-adversarial attitudes and productive comments of positive contribution to the thread topic! :wink: You have yet to post anything in a similar manner, so I can only surmise that continuation of an adversarial debate is more important to your ego needs than a positive and productive discussion of the article is. :o Take a long look at your own agenda priorities to find a comfortable resolution to your misdirected energy. My comments and replies to individuals other than yourself are not your business, and never will be. So unless you wish to contribute to a meaningful discussion of the thread topic, I would kindly request once again that you simply refrain from posting anything else, as it serves only to sidetrack the discussion for those who actually have an interest in the subject matter of the article. :slight_smile: [/QUOTE]

What you have done is assumed an adversarial attitude of others and this has revealed your own adversarial nature. The point I have been making is for to you take your own advice; if you do not like what you perceive to be adversarial then do not behave so yourself. It is that simple!

You choose to interpret my responses as adversarial because you do not like what I am saying just as you did not like what NJM and Daniel posted. It is you that has demonstrated the adversarial attitude by choosing to interpret some of the comments in the manner of your choosing and responding in kind according to your assumptions. This is a reflection of your own attitude, NOT mine NJM or Daniel’s.

You continue your adversarial attitude by ridiculing my “on topic” post while others have respond to my “on topic” post implying it had some value. Once again I encourage you to take your own advice and "Take a long look at your own agenda priorities to find a comfortable resolution to your [OWN] misdirected energy.

If you wish to move on then move on and cease replying to my comments on this topic.

32

[QUOTE=tai chi hermit;795226]my opinion is… (JUST MY OPINION!)… no one can reach ‘enlightenment’ or ‘immortality’ while carrying out a normal life in this society. maybe if you had the simple life of a simple farmer, but im not sure if being a farmer is even not enough to reach these goals. as for internal alchemy… i have researched a lot about it, yet i realize that not only would that take a hell of a lot of time and practice but also a lot of time understanding every little aspect about it.

by the way, how would one seperate from society… what would you eat? how would you get food + water to you? where would you resort to?.. really, i want these questions answered because i want to do it someday for maybe 2 - 3 yrs.

thanks[/QUOTE]

Hi tai chi hermit,

Chris and Doc have posted some good information, to add a few things:

Hindus use the metaphor of the lotus flower that rises above the sewage it grows in. Life is to be lived, but it can be lived to the fullest when we rise above the superficial behaviors and attitudes that preoccupy the lives of most individuals. To live in the world but not be of the world is the key.

Society may bring with it obstacles, but those obstacles are the measure of development. Obstacles are meant to be overcome. It is easy for a sailor to navigate a calm sea, but a master sailor can also navigate the storms. An enlightened person is unaffected by the world system and rises above it just as the lotus rises about the muck. But remember the muck is the source of the lotus’s roots. Muck is only muck because we call it muck. Inherently there is no muck at all and this is why it is possible to gain realization no matter where we are. As Chris said, it is what you bring to you circumstances that determine your experience. It is your own perception/perspective, that determines whether you are living in muck or not.

Balance is important. There is a time for the world system and a time to retreat from it in order to recalibrate our purpose and restore our energies. When you feel over-stimulated by worldly endeavors that is a sign to retreat for a period of time. Learning to listen to your mind and body’s signals is important. Your mind and body send you the signals, just learn to listen to them and work on balance.

There is an ebb and flow to growth. There is a time of growth and a time of seeming stagnation or loss of gains. These times are built into the system so to speak and are part of the natural process of Tao as illustrated by Yin-Yang.

Do not be discouraged if realization is your goal. It is not a race and there is no necessarily well defined destination. It is likely that where you end up is not where you thought you were going. All this is part of the natural process of Tao. Go with the ride, but try to learn not to push the river, or redirect it to where you think it should go.

33

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;795101]Greetings..

First, i would be pleased if someone, anyone, would actually differentiate between philosophical Taoist practices and the aberration thereof, referred to, generally, as Religious Taoism..

Second, it has come to pass, after more than 5 years on this forum it is nearing the point of diminishing returns.. psuedo-intellectual nit-picking over minutia.. “where have all the flowers gone”..

So, if you’re spending so much time talkin’ it, you ain’t spendin’ enough time doin’ it..

I think i’ll take a sabatical, actually “living it” sounds pretty good right now..

Be well, ALL…[/QUOTE]

Hi Bob,

Try not to forget that “pseudo-intellectual nitpicking” is still “doing it” and “living it”. It is ALL doing it and living it. We cannot NOT do it and live it. I know you know this so perhaps you are burning out and need a time to re-energize or re-focus yourself.

At any rate, your insights are always a benefit to any discussion and I for one will be happy to see you return when you are ready.

34

Placement.

[QUOTE=Doc Stier;795245]The Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Islamic Sufi, and Taoist Traditions have all traditionally favored a cenobitic lifestyle of the religious community living in a monastic setting adjacent to a church, temple, or mosque. Such communities usually depend on self-supporting communal industry or work, oftentimes also coupled with dependence on alms or charitable donations to the community.

Each of these Traditions, however, also has a rich history of at a small percentage of its members retiring further into seclusion to pursue their spiritual self-realization in a eremetical lifestyle model, that of a hermit monk living apart from the main monastery in caves, huts, cabins, and so forth, but still connected to the religious foundation that they are originally associated with. And in some Traditions, such individuals may become mendicant monks or friars like St. Francis of Assisi or many Buddhist monks, who constantly travel from place to place on pilgrimage to Holy Sites, depending on alms begging along the way to provide their food, lodging, clothing, and so forth.

The Taoist Tradition has typically favored the eremetical or hermit life in remote mountain areas or in secluded forest and jungle environments where few, if any, other people reside in order to guarantee minimal distractions or responsibilities and obligations to other people. [/QUOTE]

Interesting. Of course, the Confucian model advocates that the dao is found here and now, wihtin a home, with a wife(s) and children. The daily practice involving contemplation of one’s own thoughts, behaviour and rituals, carried out at the family shrine. Some of the earliest innovators or Ch’an Buddhism, lived within a family environment, applying the Confucian ethos (many were Confucian scholars).

The Daoist path, as distinct from Confucianism, did/does advocate the moving away from sensory stimulation - or, to put it another, to replace one set of sensory stimulants (wife, family, children), with another set of sensory stimulants fresh air, countryside, natural beauty), the latter being considered more favourable for contemplation and meditative attainment. The Confucians advocate family and community as the greatest aspect of existence, and bringing balance to these human collectives, as the highest, spiritual good. Daoists, at least in popular literature, left these establishments and turned their backs on society. From a Confucian perspective, ‘ren’, or humanity is the greatest attribute one could cultivate. To do this, one is required to be in a group. For the Daoist, walking a path that units the highest aspect of themselves, with the lowest aspect, (the yin with the yang), requires a ‘dropping’ away of habits of desire and association. Even though, (it could be argued), that within the character ‘Dao’, it is a Confucian scholar that is drawn, following the path that units heaven with earth. The usual perception is that for a Confucian to ‘retire’ from the world, he must ‘give-up’ being a Confucian - many then, became Daoists. But even Confucius himself, was of the opinion that if society beocmes degenerate, a gentleman should ‘withdraw’. Perhaps there is an over-lap, with both Daoism and Confucianism representing two varying stages of the need for human spiritual development.

Whereas Confucianism strives to bring order to what already exists, by refined conduct and correct behaviour, the Daoist path seeks to become ‘one’ with the patterns of nature. To fully comprehend the patterns in both there yin and yang aspects. And to, in effect, become so ‘aware’ of these patterns, that one literally ‘merges’ with change. The process of becoming ‘one’ with the changing patterns, involves the kind of development explained in the above Neidan treatise. In this context, Tai chi Chuan is a Daoist, transformative exercise, and if practiced with the correct mind-set, can contribute to inner-development.

Ch’an Buddhism however, is not concerned with social order. It is not concerned with becoming ‘one’ with the patterns of nature. It teaches that through the cultivation of the Mind, a practitioner is able to ‘pierce’ the outer layer of apparent phenomena - that is, the world as it presents itself to our senses. The Ch’an method guides the student to turn their Minds back, so that the essence of the Mnd itself maybe perceived. Now, a good Ch’an master, either lay or monastic, will point out that no matter where yyou are, either in a family or sat on a hill, the Mind-essence will be exactly the same and that perception of that essence is not dependent upon existential circumstance. Of course, there maybe times when secluded practice is required, to become ‘sure’ about things, but there will always be times when interaction is required. The Ch’an master then, is of the opinion that if one realises the essence of the Mind, and behaves inaccordance with that realisation, order is brought to social affairs (Confucianism), and by doing so, one acts inaccordance with change (Daoism).

Thank you

35

Hi Adrian,

Another good post, thank you.

I would have to interject that certain Taoists, the Alchemists in particular, believed that seclusion from the world system was a benefit. There were other Taoists such as Liu I-ming that criticized this form of Taoist thought as an abberation and contrary to the principles of Tao. I agree with Liu on a larger scale, but would disagree on an individual scale.

I am of the opinion that we each interact with Tao according to our own temperaments. Therefore, some may be inclined to seclusion by their inherent nature. To coerce such a person to participate in the world system when it is contrary to their nature would cause them to be out of accord with Tao as it relates to their individual temperament.

To me, error occurs when one method is recommended as the only method for everyone rather than taking into account each individual’s personal temperament. This view coincides with Hui-neng’s admonition to teach each person using expedients that are in accord with that person’s temperament.

36

Nei Dan Tu

Hi, Doc

The links are interesting and the pictures are great. I am most interested on the Nei Dan Tu (micro.jpg). Regretably, it is scanned to a small dpi of which the wordings are blur on enlargement. Can you please scan it to a bigger dpi to e-mail me.

Have you any in depth translation of those wording in simple chinese?

Many thanks.

Qiew

37

[QUOTE=AdrianChanWyles;795373]Ch’an Buddhism however, is not concerned with social order. It is not concerned with becoming ‘one’ with the patterns of nature. It teaches that through the cultivation of the Mind, a practitioner is able to ‘pierce’ the outer layer of apparent phenomena - that is, the world as it presents itself to our senses. The Ch’an method guides the student to turn their Minds back, so that the essence of the Mnd itself maybe perceived. Now, a good Ch’an master, either lay or monastic, will point out that no matter where yyou are, either in a family or sat on a hill, the Mind-essence will be exactly the same and that perception of that essence is not dependent upon existential circumstance. Of course, there maybe times when secluded practice is required, to become ‘sure’ about things, but there will always be times when interaction is required. The Ch’an master then, is of the opinion that if one realises the essence of the Mind, and behaves inaccordance with that realisation, order is brought to social affairs (Confucianism), and by doing so, one acts inaccordance with change (Daoism).[/QUOTE]

precisely & well said; the “idea” is to work with things such as they are - any attempt to change the internal self-order (Daoist) or external world/social order (Conf.) is, at it’s root, still originating with mind, and one cannot use the mind to “solve” the “problem” of the mind; for Ch’an, life and death are without intrinsic meaning, it is mind that fixates on the differentiation - sort of what Krisnamurti calls “pshychological time”; now, this is not advocating that one just walk into traffic - that would be confusing the relative with the absolute - even the Ch’an masters acknowledged that teaching involved “going into the weeds”, basically working with the world as it is - being in it, not of it, in a sense

it’s very interesting - in a way, it seems to me that Ch’an is addressing the basic biological urges of survival: essentially what motivates humanity / human society is the drive towards acquisition / retention of resources for survival - we need to have certain basic things to live - CH’an appears to try to address all the fear-based activites that motvate this; the question is, can the survival mechanism be “turned off”, and can one exist in the world without it? maybe the trick is to become a wel-known Ch’an master and have many students who will just feed you (;))…hard to say…

38

[QUOTE=qiew;795421]
Hi, Doc

The links are interesting and the pictures are great. I am most interested on the Nei Dan Tu (micro.jpg). Regretably, it is scanned to a small dpi of which the wordings are blur on enlargement. Can you please scan it to a bigger dpi to e-mail me.

Have you any in depth translation of those wording in simple chinese?

Many thanks.

Qiew

[/QUOTE]

Qiew:

Here’s a larger version of the image, just click on the enlargement box which appears when you point your mouse cursor at the image. Sorry, you’re on your own for a translation. :eek:

http://free.000angels.com/libran/body/ngt.gif

Doc

39

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;795431]one cannot use the mind to “solve” the “problem” of the mind.[/QUOTE]

Hi Chris,

Actually D.T. Suzuki, in his commentary on the Sutra of Hui-Neng, states that according to Hui-Neng, this is exactly what the mind does . The only thing that may be used to solve the problem of the mind is the mind itself. It is mind turning back on itself that observes itself and knows itself. We commonly call this introspection.

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;795431]CH’an appears to try to address all the fear-based activites that motvate this; the question is, can the survival mechanism be “turned off”, and can one exist in the world without it? maybe the trick is to become a wel-known Ch’an master and have many students who will just feed you (;))…hard to say…[/QUOTE]

When we transcend our conditioned interpretation of experiences it is easy to turn off the survival mechanism. This is because one perceives the inherent illusion of fear to begin with. In the end this is the greater or true survival mechanism. One’s survival is not in question therefore there is nothing to fear. When there is nothing to fear our chances of physical survival are increased as a natural consequence.

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The Chinese Occult Universe

Between the 22nd and 12th centuries BC, Chinese thought was integrated into a robust system of cosmological and political significance. Incorporated within this were the six classes of occult arts, more specifically (1) astrology, (2) almanacs, (3) the five elements, (4) divination by stalks, (5) other methods of divination and (6) the system of forms (which includes physiognomy and fengshui or geomancy). The basic building blocks for this elaborate system were the Five Elements, which were thought to make up the universe, namely Water, Fire, Wood, Metal and Earth. Each of these five base elements was grouped with physical phenomena, which they were thought to influence, thus creating five different sets of forces or powers, termed the Five Powers.Hence the element Fire, whose basic attribute is heat, was grouped with the direction South, the daily time of high noon and the season of summer. Using the same approach, the four elements Fire & Water and Wood & Metal were grouped with similar physical phenomena and categorised into opposing sets of dynamically interactive Powers. The fifth element, Earth or soil, was incorporated within this schema, somewhat uncomfortably, to make up the Fifth of the Five Powers.

The Five Powers

http://www.imperialtours.net/images/inside_china/thought/occult_universe/occult_img_fivepower.gif

Since the Ancients assumed that nature responded to the actions of humans, the interaction of the Five Powers was explained in such a way as to relate changes in time and space to human conduct. Thus a relationship was established between the conduct of nature and that of humankind. This is clearly illustrated in The Book of Rites , chapter 4:

“In the first month of spring the east wind resolves the cold. Creatures that have been torpid during the winter begin to move.. All plants bud and grow. The sovereign charges his assistants to disseminate lessons of virtue and harmonise governmental order. Prohibitions are given against cutting down trees. [because wood is the symbol of spring] In this month no warlike operations should be undertaken; such an undertaking is sure to be followed by calamities of heaven (ie natural disasters).”

The Emperor’s actions therefore directly affected the course of nature. And it was as a direct result of this symbiotic relationship between the Emperor and Nature that Imperial rule was legitimised in the eyes of the people. This is why the Chinese Emperor’s official title was “Emperor through the Mandate of Heaven and in accordance with the movements of the Five Powers.”

Establishment of the Confucianist Model

The above format, was combined with the (1) theory of yin and yang and (2) the doctrine of the mean, so that by the 12th century BC King Wen could symbolically represent the pattern of change within the universe in his famous work, the Yi Jing or Book of Changes . This was the cosmological model that Confucius inherited and elaborated with moral significance.

  1. The Theory of Yin and Yang:

Yang originally meant sunshine and Yin darkness or shadow. Soon, though, they came to refer to two opposing yet complementary cosmic forces. Yang is the universal, masculine principle that denotes the vigorous, bright, hot, dry, hard and active, while Yin is the feminine principle that inspires the passive, docile, cold, dark, wet and gentle. It is the intercourse of these two forces or principles that not only produces all things, but also governs all processes of change.

According to the beliefs underpinning the Book of Changes everything in the universe has a universal principle which defines it. Thus, for example, all walls must correspond to certain specifications to be classified as such; a wall must be upright, solid and thin, otherwise it isn’t a wall. In the same way, houses, vehicles and seasons are defined by universal principles. And the same is true for sons, wives, kings and farmers. They all conform to defining, universal principles.

It is then alleged that each of these principles contain and react to different measures of Yin and Yang, depending on circumstance. For example, when a minister talks to a sovereign he should be amenable and passive - a yin characteristic. Yet when, in ancient China, that minister returns home and talks to his family members he should behave in a decisive and firm manner - characteristics of yang. Thus the same thing or person can respond to the prevalent cosmic forces of Yin and Yang in different ways depending on time and circumstance.

Further, the Book of Changes assumes that the general movement of a body or idea or emotion between Yin and Yang is described by the concept of reversal. And so Lao Zi, the Daoist founder who promotes this concept, writes “reversal is the movement of the Power.” This means, for example, that the movement of the sun to its zenith (associated with yang) precipitates its reverse movement to the nadir (associated with yin). Similarly, the excessive heat of summer (yang) brings about a reverse movement in the opposite direction to lead us towards winter (yin). Or else in terms of Chinese history, China’s continuing fluctuations between political unification (yin) and fragmentation (yang) could be said to evidence this law. Thus every class of thing fluctuates between yin and yang polar opposites about a mean.

  1. The Doctrine of the Mean:

This teaching claims that for harmony (the mean) to be ensured every process should happen at a time and in a way proper and fit for it to occur. Thus, winter should begin in December, babies should talk after two years and relatively young people should get married. If events happen in such a way as to conform to a natural sequence, then harmony will prevail and the events, incorporated within this harmonic order, will stand a better chance of being propitious.

In the 12th century BC the laws of the occult system, the theory of yin and yang and the law of the timely mean were synthesised into a complete cosmological and metaphysical system, which is symbolically represented in the Book of Changes .

The Book of Changes

The Book of Changes is comprised of a logically developing series of 64 images mapping every possible yin yang change process. Since every physical and abstract element of reality is susceptible to each of these defined change processes, the whole universe, past, present and future can be viewed through their images.

You use the book of changes like this: you go to a practitioner to inquire about an important event in your life. The practitioner, after a long procedure of yarrow stalk selection, will tell you which of the 64 change processes is controlling your particular event. She will show you its image, or “hexagram”, and then will describe the usual characteristics of this change process in your circumstance, informing you how best to act (in accordance with the doctrine of the mean) in order to ensure the propitious completion of the event.

The images in the Book of Changes are called hexagrams, so called because they are made up of six lines. However, it is more correct to think of each hexagram as composed of two trigrams, one on top of the other, each of which is made up of three lines. There are in all 8 trigrams, and by combining each trigram with the other (8 x 8) you get the 64 images or hexagrams that make up the Book of Changes . Each trigram is made up of a combination of three undivided (yang) or divided (yin) lines. And, in the manner of the Five Powers, each trigram is associated with a variety of physical forces to form the visual representation of an interactively linked, dynamic universe. The fundamental visual concepts are expressed in the following popular schema. At the centre are the black and white Yin Yang fish, simultaneously combining to make a whole, flowing into one another to represent the endless process of change. Around this are each of the eight trigrams, placed in such a way as to correspond to their natural compass points.

http://www.imperialtours.net/images/inside_china/thought/occult_universe/occult_img_yi_jing.gif

When you read about Confucianism or Daoism, you will see how the main concepts of the Book of Changes are to be found at the root of much Chinese thought.

Article originally presented by Imperial Tours