Lineage Change

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway… fire away

GlennR

Heres one for you Kevin

You said this on a post when i asked you about your previous lineage…

"V Kan .
The system was taught without the elbow development and why.
wristing sticky hands Chi Sao. No jum sao …using tan as a block leaving the line.
And more…once I had certain elements from PB I could see the reasons for confusion and plain gaps in a lot of others too.
Not secrets or marketing. "

Was there anything in the VK system you preferred to the PB system?

[QUOTE=GlennR;1098472]Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway… fire away

GlennR[/QUOTE]

Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :slight_smile:

I’ve never felt the need to change, but I did ‘leave’ my Sifu after our unspoken contract was done! :smiley: Then, I researched other families and met as many Sifus in the UK as I could to see what the outside world was doing :wink:

My Sifu started teaching officially in 1978 and he still has guys with him that started back then. They went everywhere and experienced all sorts of different approaches but still never found anything or anyone like him. Just saying :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=kowloonboy;1098481]Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :)[/QUOTE]Tsui Shong Tin, direct Yip Man student. Possibly the oldest surviving HK student.

[QUOTE=kowloonboy;1098481]Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :)[/QUOTE]

Sure… its a common abbreviation for him, this should help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shong-tin

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1098484]I’ve never felt the need to change, but I did ‘leave’ my Sifu after our unspoken contract was done! :smiley: Then, I researched other families and met as many Sifus in the UK as I could to see what the outside world was doing :wink:

My Sifu started teaching officially in 1978 and he still has guys with him that started back then. They went everywhere and experienced all sorts of different approaches but still never found anything or anyone like him. Just saying :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing Spencer

[QUOTE=GlennR;1098472

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting:
It was my great good fortune to be living in Tucson 1972-1979)- where I met my sifu Augustine Fong and began wing chun regularly in 1976. After 1979 I traveled weekend from Las Cruces, New Mexico friday through Sundays for instruction 79-85..then traveled from Tempe to Tucson once a month and seminars 85 to now.
I did other martial stuff before wing chun and have had some instruction to some other kung fu. I have not changed lineages and don’t plan to. I have visited quite a few other wing chun places and done chi sao with some very well known people.
I don’t change because my exposure to wing chun opened a gateway to understanding much about being natural, open and experimental and this continues and evolves.

I do not put down other major IM wing chun lineages, and respect people’s choices of any other
wing chun or martial art or sport.

joy chaudhuri

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1098494]I do not put down other major IM wing chun lineages, and respect people’s choices of any other wing chun or martial art or sport.[/QUOTE]

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said…

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1098494]Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting[/QUOTE]

As if others here are? A ‘silent dig’ at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not ‘selling’ or ‘recriuiting’ too :slight_smile: and you might want to remember that

[I]"Originally Posted by Vajramusti

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting

As if others here are? A ‘silent dig’ at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not ‘selling’ or ‘recriuiting’ too and you might want to remember that
"[/I]

–> I don’t think Joy meant that; he doesn’t strike me as that type of person. I believe all he was trying to do was to add a disclaimer that he was not trying to promote or sell the Augustine Fong lineage with his positive remarks.

Regarding myself, I have been with Sifu Ho Kam Ming since the early 70s in Macao. Throughout the course of time I’ve had the chance to visit with a number of different Ip Man lineages, including personal acquaintances with WSL, LT, Kenneth Chong, Stephen Chan, Chow Tze Chuen, Francis Fong, and quite a few others themselves. I have to admit, though, I have little to no experience with WC outside the Ip Man line and so cannot comment on them. In addition, I have had the opportunity to do exchanges and research with other styles such as Long Fist, Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Yau Gong Moon, CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Southern Dragon, Nan Chuan, as well as the Korean and Japanese styles Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, Karate, and Aikido. And I found that the deeper I dove into kung fu, the more I really appreciated having Sifu Ho Kam Ming as my teacher, and how deeply I really loved WC. He was very meticulous in explaining things to us, made us explore and question what we were doing to make sure we understood and not just do, constantly challenged us, and was adamant about having good, solid foundations as a pre-cursore to the more advanced aspects of WC. If you did not have solid foundation, you were not moved on, and yes, you could leave the school then if you were frustrated. He placed a lot of emphasis on developing reaction skills through close-range sensitivity via Chi Sao, and I have to say that I have not seen too many schools that do Chi Sao the way HKM lineage does it. He was very clear when it came to training and which aspect were a part of building structure, developing WC skills, or getting ready for combats and tournaments. We were all pretty much like a family and we all treated him like a fatherly figure. I have a lot of wonderful memories from that.

I feel very fortunate to have come across HKM at the beginning of my kung fu journey, then having him guide me along the way, and now cherish the opportunity to pass on what I learned to my own students. I have also had the opportunity to train a Golden Glove boxer, Muay Thai fighters, a Navy Seal, law enforcement officers, and fighters from other disciplines, and loved seeing how they were able to apply their newly-acquired WC close-range fighting skills to their style, and how they made themselves much more effecient/effective fighters as a result.

And, just as Joy said, I am not trying to market or sell Ho Kam Ming… just relating back to the title of the thread on why I liked my lineage.

Lone Tiger- NTC is correct- I was not attacking anyone- just a disclaimer.

Sigung Ho’s knowledge
of Ip man and his art is deep and extensive… and like good gung fu folks his students have personalized what they have learned…Fong, Lui, Tam, Chan,Buddy, NTC,Kiet. Leung , several Chinese women,and others.
He is not the marketing type and is a fairly stern old school teacher. When he goes much wing chun knowledge will go with him.

Being of Indian descent, I doubt that Tp Man would have taught me(in the old days)… but am grateful that I learned something about his art.

joy chaudhuri

Chung Kwok Chow
Moy Yat
Lee Moy Shan
Pan Nam WC (5 Tigers School NYC)
Duncan Leung
Alan Lee
Alan Lamb
Henry Leung
William Cheung

My first instructor taught a mixture of WC, CLF and Northern Sil Lum, and bits and pieces of other things he picked up along the way. He was a Nidan in Goju Ryu Karate and a Shodan in JJJ before he took up TCMA, so he was pretty knowedgable for a Gwailo in the 60’s/70’s.

He instilled in me the attitude that the lineage, style or system are far less important than the instructor and your ability to relate to him. “Find an instructor that suits you” was his advice. Also, that it’s foolish to remain in a stylistic black hole without at least considering what’s outside. He cultivated friendships and joint training with other local instructors of all styles of MA for his students and himself.

I had to stop training with him due to employment and geographical reasons.

When I find something I generally stick with it. Sometimes way past the point where I should have left, with a Xingyi/Bagua instructor I spend five years with and a couple of jobs I had.

I’ve been where I am now coming up to 22 years. I enrolled at another BJJ school as well as training BJJ under my WC instructor because IMO the new school’s instructor is the best in my city and state, and my personal goals required me to seek more tuition than I could get at the WC academy.

Anerlich… thanks for posting. I think it is really cool that you continued to pursue WC along with BJJ, and also looked into Xing Yi to broaden your skills and experience. It shows the quality of student that you are, and especially your will and perserverance in not letting obstacles like money or geographical options bog you down. You are a good example to a lot of folks out there.

[QUOTE=GlennR;1098475]Heres one for you Kevin

You said this on a post when i asked you about your previous lineage…

"V Kan .
The system was taught without the elbow development and why.
wristing sticky hands Chi Sao. No jum sao …using tan as a block leaving the line.
And more…once I had certain elements from PB I could see the reasons for confusion and plain gaps in a lot of others too.
Not secrets or marketing. "

Was there anything in the VK system you preferred to the PB system?[/QUOTE]

No I am very happy with the level of information I am getting now.

[QUOTE=ntc;1098530][I]"Originally Posted by Vajramusti

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting

As if others here are? A ‘silent dig’ at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not ‘selling’ or ‘recriuiting’ too and you might want to remember that
"[/I]

–> I don’t think Joy meant that; he doesn’t strike me as that type of person. I believe all he was trying to do was to add a disclaimer that he was not trying to promote or sell the Augustine Fong lineage with his positive remarks.

Regarding myself, I have been with Sifu Ho Kam Ming since the early 70s in Macao. Throughout the course of time I’ve had the chance to visit with a number of different Ip Man lineages, including personal acquaintances with WSL, LT, Kenneth Chong, Stephen Chan, Chow Tze Chuen, Francis Fong, and quite a few others themselves. I have to admit, though, I have little to no experience with WC outside the Ip Man line and so cannot comment on them. In addition, I have had the opportunity to do exchanges and research with other styles such as Long Fist, Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Yau Gong Moon, CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Southern Dragon, Nan Chuan, as well as the Korean and Japanese styles Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, Karate, and Aikido. And I found that the deeper I dove into kung fu, the more I really appreciated having Sifu Ho Kam Ming as my teacher, and how deeply I really loved WC. He was very meticulous in explaining things to us, made us explore and question what we were doing to make sure we understood and not just do, constantly challenged us, and was adamant about having good, solid foundations as a pre-cursore to the more advanced aspects of WC. If you did not have solid foundation, you were not moved on, and yes, you could leave the school then if you were frustrated. He placed a lot of emphasis on developing reaction skills through close-range sensitivity via Chi Sao, and I have to say that I have not seen too many schools that do Chi Sao the way HKM lineage does it. He was very clear when it came to training and which aspect were a part of building structure, developing WC skills, or getting ready for combats and tournaments. We were all pretty much like a family and we all treated him like a fatherly figure. I have a lot of wonderful memories from that.

I feel very fortunate to have come across HKM at the beginning of my kung fu journey, then having him guide me along the way, and now cherish the opportunity to pass on what I learned to my own students. I have also had the opportunity to train a Golden Glove boxer, Muay Thai fighters, a Navy Seal, law enforcement officers, and fighters from other disciplines, and loved seeing how they were able to apply their newly-acquired WC close-range fighting skills to their style, and how they made themselves much more effecient/effective fighters as a result.

And, just as Joy said, I am not trying to market or sell Ho Kam Ming… just relating back to the title of the thread on why I liked my lineage.[/QUOTE]

The HKM lineage is a very well known and respected lineage amongst the Yip Man VT line in Hong Kong. I have personally met Sifu Lui Ming Fai and had friends who went up to train at his class in Macau a couple years ago. They train exceptional fighters back in the days in Macau. I have nothing but great respect for that lineage. =)

[QUOTE=GlennR;1098472]Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway… fire away

GlennR[/QUOTE]

I Personally have stuck with the WSL lineage for years. Just wasn’t really in my personality to change due to that fact that once he is my Sifu.. he will always be my sifu mentality. (besides, sifu being a family friend of my parents, it would not have been good to go learn VT from someone else. HAHA) Nevertheless… I have seen students from other lineage and have been able to do some exchanges with them. All in all.. different people do VT for different reasons. We don’t convert or sell to anyone… If you like what you are doing.. then keep doing it. (Just be realistic about what you are trying to achieve) I enjoy the WSL lineage and I have no plans ever to move especially since I am helping to teach now.

We do stuff our way and if you ask we will gladly explain, then you can determine which path you wish to continue to follow.

There is MORE than one way to do VT. Each to their own. =)

[QUOTE=wkmark;1098630]I Personally have stuck with the WSL lineage for years. Just wasn’t really in my personality to change due to that fact that once he is my Sifu.. he will always be my sifu mentality. (besides, sifu being a family friend of my parents, it would not have been good to go learn VT from someone else. HAHA) Nevertheless… I have seen students from other lineage and have been able to do some exchanges with them. All in all.. different people do VT for different reasons. We don’t convert or sell to anyone… If you like what you are doing.. then keep doing it. (Just be realistic about what you are trying to achieve) I enjoy the WSL lineage and I have no plans ever to move especially since I am helping to teach now.

We do stuff our way and if you ask we will gladly explain, then you can determine which path you wish to continue to follow.

There is MORE than one way to do VT. Each to their own. =)[/QUOTE]

True on more than one way. And good reasoning for sticking with your lineage

joy

Wing Chun people interested in fighting.

Any REAL fighter knows that you should study the competition. But some not all Wing Chun people have blinders on as to what other arts are doing. So, I’m posting some clips of the NYC Manup Standup amateur events. We don’t have a fighter for this event. I’m just going to do a demo there and leaving to teach my class. I hope the fact that these are not WC fighters won’t get this thread moved. We need so see what’s out there in order to know how to deal with it using your Wing Chun.
We do a “martial” art and I hope that more Wing Chun people will be willing to test what they are learning against people outside of the comfort zone of their kwoons. I know we all talk about what Wing Chun is and isn’t. Sifu Francis Fong said “People talk talk talk… but the one still standing says anything he wants”. So these clips aren’t of Wing Chun fighters. They are of the guys you’ll have to fight if you want to test your WC in this event.

Heavy Wt fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ_tTAAxY_s&lc=CaNK2O0SCjWxhjpTlfsnbLqvvdMizj5rlt-ZeEvRQT8&feature=inbox

Lt Wt title fight
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiItXWGYU1c

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Zr2PEKK_E&feature=related

If you’re not into testing your WC that’s all good too.

[QUOTE=ntc;1098614]Anerlich… thanks for posting. I think it is really cool that you continued to pursue WC along with BJJ, and also looked into Xing Yi to broaden your skills and experience. It shows the quality of student that you are, and especially your will and perserverance in not letting obstacles like money or geographical options bog you down. You are a good example to a lot of folks out there.[/QUOTE]

You, sir, are a gentleman. Thank you very much.