Lies, Deceit & Frauds Know no shame or boundries...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I’m a TCMA fanatic. I’ve spent around half my life in martial arts with the majority within TCMA. My style of choice is Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun~bka~ Black Tiger. I’ve posted many a thread and post on this forum and others to help people learn and understand Black Tiger. I’ve pretty much went against my sifu’s wishes in doing so, i might add. Black Tiger has always been underground and pretty much looks like it’s going to remain that way.

I wanted people to see what a style that has remained pretty much close to it’s roots looks like. In doing so i knew that frauds would begin to pop up here and their claimng Black Tiger. I even watched as a website updated itself after each black tiger post i made on forums. I posted video of Black Tiger forms and pics of rare items like our chinese Wooden Handcuff form and The Black Tiger Nined Armed grinder Dummy. I spoke of Black Tiger training and conditioning drills all while my sifu prefered me not to do so. In posting all that info as long as it was not used to defraud the public or my sifu or sigung, i didn’t mind what people stole or used.

But this here is clearly the most blantant theft and use of black Tiger info i’ve posted on the net. Down below are two links. The first link is to the thread i started here and at other forums about “Information On Black Tiger style” It was copied from another thread posted on another forum by a Black Tiger brother of mine.

The second link is from a website by a guy in England that claims to have not only learned Black Tiger, but from my sigung in Hong Kong, and now claims he teaches it in England.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/3309-information-black-tiger-style.html

http://ukitnow.04.websecurestores.com/KungFu/Origins/tabid/87/Default.aspx

Notice, not only did he repost the writing, but he did so verbatim. :rolleyes:

How low will these people stoop to deceive others? :eek:

First off, Wong Cheung had never before the mid-late 70’s taught nothing but Chinese students. Those students that he did give instruction to in the mid-late 70’s were students of one of Wong Cheung’s disciples, that had been teaching in America at a College while he studied there. So for this guy to say he learned from Wong Cheung in Hong Kong from the 40’s-50’s is a complete fabrication. Also, those students that Wong Cheung did teach for a short time in the mid-late 70’s, were all given certificates, so the names are easy to substantiate.

This guy claims to have learned from Wong Cheung in Hong Kong from the 40’s-50’s. By the 40’s Wong Cheung had already moved to the old train station in Kowloon, so his claims don’t add up at all. I hate to say, it’s people like this guy that have led me to decide to no longer share Black Tiger info on the net. So i will be taking down all vids and info and not putting up new vids or info i had to share within forums. It is one thing to try and defraud the public, but to do so using my sigung’s or sifu’s name, is something i will not be a participant to.

jeff :slight_smile:

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hey don’t be so hasty jeff I haven’t seen any of your vids although I get your point.

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well, they’re still up for now and on this forum, so if you want to see them? I suggest you check the Southern section for Black Tiger vids, because i will be removing them within a few days.

yea it sucks how people will use your lineage or name to try and fool others.

jeff:)

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Thats bad :eek:

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Uk tiger

Jeff,

A shame such plagarism has occoured, however the UK guy you are reffering to has no face in the TCMA community, and is well known for having a flexible history of training so to speak.

Those that know, give him no face and take no notice.

Send him an email and discuss the issue with him, tell him that he has blatantly plagarised your information, tell him to cease and desist fortwith.

Just a thought

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I am not intending to create an argument and I mean this in a constructive manner not as an attempt to insult or denigrate.

This is a BB and anyone can post anything they want. Why are we to believe you and not him? Once someone posts something you don’t like you want to run and hide instead of dealing with the problem you created!

If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is. Perhaps there are things you don’t know or information some others have forgotten that explains the discrepancy. We don’t know that!

While personally I appreciate that you have posted your information and I do not believe anyone should have any reason to hide their art if they truly believe it is of value, your Sifu has asked you not to post the information and you did it anyway. This was disrespectful and is your error. Now you will only compound your error by hiding what you believe is the true expression of your art. The general public will now perceive what you consider a fallacious expression of your art as the true expression because there is no longer an answer to it. The charlatans will have no competition and the innocent will suffer for your errors of judgment by your insistence to remove TRUE information from the public view. If you had not disobeyed your instructor in the first place you and your art might not be in this position, but now that you are in this predicament you owe it to your art and to the public to continue to provide factual information to counter what you see as erroneous information. Empty criticism is inherently meaningless because as I previously stated the average Joe doesn’t know who to believe!

If your original intention was to inform the public of the uniqueness of your art for the benefit of the public then your intentions were good, if you intended to boast about your art than your intentions were selfish. If you truly believe the world would benefit from the sharing of your art before, then to take it down now because of a few bad apples is irresponsible. You punish the many for the sins of the few! You shouldn’t hide your head in the sand because a few people have taken advantage of your good intentions. The world is full of charlatans. You can look at your glass as half full or half empty. The half full perspective says your art is so valuable or interesting, etc. that there are people out there actually trying to make money off the name! This is a sign of distinction!

If you feel that is necessary to reveal the charlatans for whom they are then I encourage you to follow your principles, but I see it as a losing proposition to hide correct information now. You must continue to provide what you consider to be factual information, not just diatribes. Anyone can criticize others, but not everyone has the true facts. If you have the true facts you must provide them for the benefit of your art and the benefit of the public as well. Then let the public decide for themselves.

Keep in mind he can call his art anything he wants until your organization registers the name as a trademark. If he is lying about his history there is not much you can do other than say it is false. You CAN take any skill sets he provides and compare them to the actual skill sets taught. If you criticize without any proof then it is your word against his and your credibility will only be strong to those to whom you have already established credibility and will mean nothing to those who do not know you and vise versa for him or anyone else.

I say, “So what??”, if someone else is trying to get a pay off stealing (borrowing?) from your art. There will always be those who will take advantage and steal (borrow) from others. Do you think this is the only time it has ever happened in the history of man? If the credibility of your art is damaged by charlatan then it didn’t have much credibility to begin with since stealing from others is as old as man and quite rampant in the MA from the beginning! Credibility comes from the people practicing the art, not the art itself.

How many expressions are there of any art? Tai Chi? Aikido? Jujutsu? Karate? No one owns the market on anything. It is all up for grabs. Your responsibility now is to defend your art not hide it because someone has taken advantage or your good intentions!

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If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is.

Well, this particular page gives info into 2005 while the original post in dragon’s list was written in 2002.

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Also, someone who apears to be from this “Sil Lum Kune” schools recently posted on another forum how his school recently discovered their “long lost” black tiger past. I didn’t put one and one together immediately, but I doubt it’s coincidence that this page and student who are both located in the U.K. just happened to show up at about the same time :wink:

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lol!

Jeff, that totally sux, but at the same time, you gotta go wtf? and laugh a little.

drop him a line, tell him what’s what and move on I guess.

He’s not the first and won’t be the last to glean from others that which he hasn’t earned or learned.

Surprisingly, this is all to common. Im not certain what it is with the lineage ho’s who chase after other peoples histories or try to tie themselves to something that never was. there is something wrong with their minds probably.

maybe not enough of dadddy taking em fishing and too much mommy rejecting them makes them do this. They’ll never know until they deal with their own demons and for the most part, people like that will never ever glimpse on who they really are and will forever remains in a haze of famtasy that shields them from their confusion and otherwise horribly dull and boring life. :stuck_out_tongue:

poor sods.

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We have the same problem in Tai Tzu. I know one player who want to put TONES of authentic Tai Tzu material on a site, but hasn’t as of yet, and I find myslf hoping he doesn’t because I fear a specific well known fraud may steal it and start acting like it was his all a long.

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“Paper may not cover the fire.”

“True gold will stand the trial of the fire.”

If you are in a particular style long enough, you would pretty much know who is who.

The trickery will not hold up over time.

If you quote some text, be nice to mention the source where moves or classics are from. It will only increase your credibility.

Chinese have the other extremes. If you say you have some thing from yourself, people would say ya ya and yawn, yawn.

Instead, you say so and so because some well known person also said so and so. You have the attentions right away.

:smiley:

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Hi Brad,

Thank you for the dates.

Imagine this as a possible scenario:

15 Year Old Well Meaning Student: Hey Sifu! I found some good info on the founder of our system! We should put it on our website!

Internet Naive Sifu: Great! Do it!!

Well Meaning Student: Ok! Done!!!

Everyone is oblivious they have offended anyone or that the information is improperly cited.

Angry e-mails follow!

Internet Naïve Sifu has no idea what happened or why, has no idea he had offended anyone or how this internet thing works. In fact he rarely views the website because responsibility is delegated to 15 Year Old Well Meaning Student.

Bad feelings create bad feelings and now everyone is upset and no one is quite sure how to resolve the situation because no one can communicate without anger.

It could be considered an honor to have someone use your words on their website. Since many people have not been to the university they may not understand that it is necessary to credit sources. I just think it may be premature to presume dishonest intent. My brother-in-law’s father says: “Do not attribute to evil intent what can be explained by incompetence!”

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15 Year Old Well Meaning Student: Hey Sifu! I found some good info on the founder of our system! We should put it on our website!

Internet Naive Sifu: Great! Do it!!

Well Meaning Student: Ok! Done!!!

I find that scenario highly unlikely. Here’s the link to the thread I was talking about so you can see where myself (and a couple others) might be coming from: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52127

As you can see it’s not just him finding new info on the styles founder… it’s his school supposedly just now finding out that they do black tiger kungfu even changing the name to fit their newly discovered lineage.

You combine that with the fact that Jeff isn’t the first person to have a problem with the guy, and it’s not too hard to see that the problem is most likely more than just an computer illiteriate sifu and his well meaning but uneducated hypothetical student.

Of course either way Jeff should email them (and if he doesn’t get a reply, call them directly) and let them know they are using his words and info without permission which is illegal.

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Why didn’t you listen to your sifu?

Are you sure that this guy didn’t train with said master? It’s not completely unlikely that a master trained someone else that your sifu doesn’t know about, is it? Perhaps while this other student was away at school, like you said?

I don’t know…it is crappy that this dude swiped your info and now plays it off as his own. But, ultimately I have to say it’s your fault. Why didn’t you listen to your sifu’s advice…his instructions?

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Probably should respect your sifu’s wishes (unless you’re on your own now). Of course keeping all your info secret and private isn’t going to stop frauds, while making it public can make it easier to catch them once in awhile. Asuming for a sec it’s not a big crazy misunderstanding (like Scott’s proposed scenario) Jeff’s public sharing of info may have inadvertantly helped a few people see a dishonest sifu for what he is. It’s better to have both the real and fake people out in the public rather than just the fakes :stuck_out_tongue:

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jmd161, be flattered when plaguerized

I’ve actually had people submit articles to me that were plagiarized from things I wrote years ago. It’s really funny because I’ll be reading them and think, man, does that sound familiar. At first, it used to really **** me off. I’ve seen other writers cop ideas directly from material I wrote published in other magazines and that’s just irksome. But then, I realized it was flattering that they lacked so much confidence in their own stuff, or were so impressed by my stuff, or simply didn’t have their own stuff, that led them to steall my stuff. It’s always annoying dealing with thieves, but eventually I grew to take it as a compliment. At least you have something worth stealing. Personally, I don’t think you’re established as a martial artist until someone steals from you (but perhaps that’s just me justifying). Anyway, welcome to the club.

BTW, the last time we did anything on Black Tiger was in our
March April 2001 Animal style special. See The Rare Black Tiger Style: The Black Tiger Clan, Huk Fu Moon, and Hong Kong Grandmaster, Wong Cheung By Wayne Carisi

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Hi Brad,

You have given some sound advice for Jeff!

The Instructor of the first style I trained in and earned my Black Belt in trained under Ark Wong of L.A.s’ China Town. In the late 70’s a friend and I went to meet Ark and he didn’t remember my Instructor. It had been 15 or so years since he had trained with Ark.

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map is rife with the ghey.

it hurts to read those forums.

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dont feel bad about promoting your art jeff. you shouldn’t be held accountable for frauds like that. every legitimate style has to deal with them. dont get jaded over it either. if everyone felt the need to keep their arts in the dark for fear of plagiarism then we wouldn’t know even half of what we do about CMA today. i think most people here will agree that thankfully that isn’t the case.

i think your doing a good thing personally and years from now some kid studying it will hafta thank you for introducing it to a wider audience though they may not know it. i see why some teachers have that closed door mentality but you can get around that. eventually people will learn to tell the real from the fake the more you and people like you teach them. :smiley:

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lol at the guy’s site.

There’s a lot of pictures from Black Tiger Pai of students training in the train yard and on the rooftops.

Curious how the englishman doesn’t have one single photo fo himself with Master Wong. But he does have plenty of pictures of a kempo group or two…in england…:rolleyes:

he hasn’t changed his site yet.

lol.