Information on Black Tiger style.

I’ve received e-mail about my style of Hak Fu Moon (Black Tiger Style).I’ve received both positive and negative replys from members on this forum.I thought i would take this time and thread to explain some things about Black Tiger Style.

There are many schools of Black Tiger both of Chinese and Non-Chinese origin.The style of Black Tiger i study is not " Fu Jow Pai " or " Shangtung " but is a CMA.I’m going to post a thread from another forum written by my Sihing in Texas that should explain alot.

The original founder of this particular style (there is more than one Black Tiger style) was Wong Cheung, aka Kut Shuin, from Pun Yu county, Kwangtung province, China. At age 8, he was learning “Sam Chin”, the Iron Wire Form, from his grandfather. (This form is intended to harden the body making it more resistant to nerve and pressure strikes, as well as all kinds of other punishment. I used to practice it in order to do the “nail bed” trick.) At the age of 10, Wong contracted small pox and was sent to Dr. Leung Shu Cha. After he recovered, he stayed with Dr. Cha for some time and learned the “108 plum-blossom dummy” and the “9-armed grinder dummy.” (The latter form is still extant and contains 72 techniques and 108 movements.) At the age of 14, Wong went to Canton where he secretly watched Dr. Fu Man (brother of Fu Cheng Sung of Iron Palm) practice Dragon Pa Kwa. After being found out, Fu agreed to teach Wong this style. At the age of 19, Wong arrived in Hong Kong. A co-worker saw Wong practicing with his staff and, borrowing it and imitating Wong’s technique, broke it in 2. It turned out that this co-worker, Fung Wing-Pai, was a monk who had returned to “worldly life.” Fung had studied under a disciple of the founder of Black Tiger Kung Fu, and he taught this style to Wong for 3 years. Wong also studied under Kwong Ken Chen, a disciple of Wong Fei Hung. He studied Chi Kung under Cheung Loy and Lee Kow. He studied weapons under Pun Fei San, learning to use the 18 standard weapons and a number of others. In 1928, he set up a school in Hong Kong and, after the war, moved across the harbor to Kowloon. Sifu Wong died a few years ago at the age of 95 (or so I was told). I don’t know if a school is still open. So Black Tiger is really a family of different styles. Black Tiger itself doesn’t put a high priority on “clawing techniques,” like some of the other Tiger styles. Rather, Black Tiger is more of a philosophy. In Chinese mythology, the black tiger is cunning and treacherous, as opposed to the white tiger, which is honest and forthright. Wong was less than 5’ tall, so he emphasized sneaky techniques and body hardening to a high degree. Most of the kicks are low and gouging, clawing, and raking to vulnerable areas are preferred to hitting in a real fight. Among the many forms are elements of most animal and family styles, as well as chin na and drunken boxing, neither of which is actually a style in itself.

As with the original traditional Chinese arts, there were no belts. Seniority was established by when a person enters into the system. So even a person who is no longer active is considered “senior” to someone who started later. Seniority has nothing to do with who is a better fighter. This is established in the frequent sparring and everybody recognizes where they stand with respect to everyone else. It promotes “brotherliness” and eliminates a lot of the pettiness and nonsense of arbitrary belt awards based on a particular “standard” or “fighting ability.” (Not that the standards of all arts are always substandard, mind you. It just seems that belts are often awarded nowadays as an incentive to continue paying dues, rather than true mastery of technique or philosophy. Another thing I personally dislike is putting famous “masters” on the board or awarding them honorary “belts” just so they can appear on a club’s directory. Both the club and the “master” are guilty of self-promotion, if you ask me). In the Wong Cheung Gymnasium, there was only 1 sifu, whom we would also call a grandmaster, and that was Wong Cheung. In the old days, a sifu was an older person, probably past his prime physically, who was a fountain of knowledge and yet still very competent. Thirty and 40 year old “sifu’s” were unknown. Fat or obviously incompetent sifus were also rare. You can cloud the whole thing over with semantics all you want, but young sifus were virtually non-existent. Simply the fact of being a skilled fighter, perhaps capable of beating every opponent, was not grounds for the title, “sifu.” My own teacher, although extremely gifted and intelligent, always insisted on being called “teacher” and nothing more.

Grandmaster Wong Cheung was the 5th Grandmaster of Black Tiger Style.My Sifu Fred Woo was the Chairman of The Black Tiger Assocation in Hong Kong under Grandmaster Wong Cheung his Sifu.

If you guys have any questions ask away i’ll be glad to answer any questions.I hope this clears up some of the mist about Black Tiger.

Note: This is in no way a show of Disrespect towards Fu Jow Pai or Shantung Black Tiger.This is just to explain this school of Black Tiger.

jmd161:)

Props to Black Tiger

Hello, Jmd1061, I too study a black tiger system. It is a southern system called Hak Fu Pai. It is similar to hung gar in some aspects, such as low stances, dynamic tension sets and even some movements. However, unlike the tiger that hung gar embodies, a black tiger is said to be smaller in stature and therefore does not rely on the hard blocking techniques of hung gar but uses circular movements and deflections instead. It also contains a lot of footwork, agility and angles of attack and defense.
My sifu is fifty now and has been practicing for over thirty years.
I’m curious if our systems are similar in any way?
Is there a website for your school?
I will post ours: http://www.mts.net/~sillum/Inner%20Chamber.htm

I am very familiar with your school and Sifu

WinterPalm,

I’ve talked to your Sifu through e-mail.Infact he e-mailed me a few weeks back.I’ve also spoken with Kung Lek on this board through e-mail several times.He as i’m sure you know learned Black Tiger from Sifu Wes *******.

Our system is also very close to Hung Gar ,but we do have alot of the hard blocking that you see in Hung Gar. We also have the dynamic tension sets, circular movements and deflections you mentioned.Yes a Black Tiger is said to be smaller and relies on alot of speed.Pretty much everything you’ve mentioned is within our Black Tiger System.The only difference is where your system is pretty much Southern.Our system is a mixture of Northern and Southern fighting systems.Although it has a very very strong Southern feel.Infact the only Northern parts of our system is we have longrange forms and techniques along with the kicks like Bak Sil Lum (N.Shaolin).Pretty much like Choy Lay Fut it’s a Southern system that looks like a Northern Longfist system.

No we don’t have a website i’m trying to talk my Sifu into it.He does’nt beleive in teaching the commerical way he’s old school.He teaches the same way he learned in Hong Kong very traditional.Infact our school is just an empty warehouse no AC, no mats, no padding,and very tough.With him either your kung fu is perfect or you leave the school never to return.He does’nt accept many students anyway there’s only three of us he has choosen to pass Black Tiger to.I along with a Sihing in Texas are trying to start a Black Tiger Assocation here in the U.S.No non- sense just good kung fu to preserve Black Tiger.There are not many ppl left teaching this school of Black Tiger.Many rather take it to their grave than give into watering it down to teach it here in the U.S.

The school of Black Tiger i belong to is unlike any school of martial arts i’ve ever seen in my 21yrs.There is no non sense in this school it is pure kung fu. It is only taught to serious students.Even the two american sifu that i know teach this way.It is usually taught privately no big school setting.If the student does’nt show progress he/she is told to leave and not return.Not too many last anyway because the training is so tough.I myself in the begining almost quit ,because of the training.Sifu is very strict and pushes you past your limit ,but he is also one of the nicest and funniest people you’ll ever meet once you get to know him.

Black Tiger training is very tough ,but i would’nt trade it for the world.I now know what true kung fu looks like ,and have a new found respect for kung fu.I only wish everyone had the chance to have a Sifu like mine because real kung fu is unlike anything you could ever imagine.

jmd161:)

jmd- pretty robust accounting of your style.

Tiger style Kung Fu in general is highly prevalent around the world.

The grinder dummy routine sounds pretty interesting. I’ve always liked the heavy kung training aspect of Kung Fu myself and I don’t often see it offered in other schools.

Interesting to hear that the begininngs were a healing process, if I understood that correctly. :slight_smile:

peace

Old school traditional for me.

Kung Lek,

Yeah the Grinder Dummy is something else.My Sifu gets calls and letters from Sifu all over wanting to learn about the grinder Dummy.How to make one,How to do the form,etc… He does’nt share knowledge with ppl outside of Black Tiger though.He says that you teach someone a form or technique then they go practice it add it to their style and yrs later somehow you stole it from them.

Yeah you understood right.I needed to meet my Black Tiger Sifu or i would’ve been wasting my time and money.I had some great Sifu before it’s just that i needed someone to push me beyond my limits.I needed this one on one training i get in Black Tiger it is amazing how much you learn that way.Everything Sifu teaches us is broken down so much that a child would understand how to apply it.Black Tiger is geared strickly towards combat.We have forms but there not flashy tournament forms.Most all of the flashy stuff has been removed from our forms.

jmd161:)

Do you know of any schools in Texas that teach this system? I would love to get the chance to learn it or some style of kung fu like it. I live in an area where it is flooded with TKD (which I am training in) and don’t see many if any styles of kung fu.

You might be in luck?

Originally posted by votex
Do you know of any schools in Texas that teach this system?

votex,

You just might be lucky.

How close are you to El Paso?

I have a Sihing in El Paso that teaches. He is a Black Tiger Sifu ,but only teaches private classes.

If you’re near there e-mail me and let me know i’ll put you in touch with him.

Do you have any martial arts experience? It’s not important i was just asking.

jmd161:)

You say your style doesn’t use many tiger claw techniques yet isn’t that, combined with the spirit in combat of the tiger, the essence of and signature of Black Tiger and most likely any Tiger system?
Just curious.
What sort of forms do you do? Such as body conditioning, qi gong, fighting etc?

wp-

I agree that the fu jow is a signature of the tiger. but tiger encompasses a lot of things. examples being, relentless attack, development of upper body strength, continuous striking (see relentless attack), and the kungs associated with upper body development. The forearm strength is high in tiger training as well and in the style sifu teaches stance is very strong root and deep while at the same time highly mobile.

sifu would express that if someone wants your ground, give it to them and take theirs while maintaining the attack. once the wheel is turning (so to speak), you can really feel the cyclical motions of the tiger attacks as it encircles and traps the opponent.

cheers

Originally posted by WinterPalm
You say your style doesn’t use many tiger claw techniques yet isn’t that, combined with the spirit in combat of the tiger, the essence of and signature of Black Tiger and most likely any Tiger system?
Just curious.
What sort of forms do you do? Such as body conditioning, qi gong, fighting etc?

WinterPalm,

It’s not that we don’t have many tiger claw techniques.The tiger claw techniques are not the backbone of our black tiger.Our school of black tiger has many styles of kung fu within it.So the black tiger is more of a philosophy.In our style the snake,crane,leopard,dragon,and tiger all play important parts within our system.As well as elephant,horse,monkey,eagle,and lion.

yet isn’t that, combined with the spirit in combat of the tiger, the essence of and signature of Black Tiger and most likely any Tiger system?

To an extent that is true.
The philosophy is that the black tiger is cunning and treacherous.We use the spirit of the tiger as well as the spirit of many other animals in our style.In black tiger it’s whichever spirit is more suited for the situation.Other styles like Fu Jow Pai use mainly tiger techniques. Our school of black tiger is also close to hung gar ,but it’s also close to Choy Lay Fut,wing chun,hung fut,monkey,etc…

What sort of forms do you do?

Well we have over 80 empty hand forms alone.We have.
1.night tiger a longrange form similar to bak sil lum and choy lay fut.
2.dragon pek kwar
3.monkey
4.golden buddha
5.8 drunken immortals.

Those are some of our forms.

body conditioning, qi gong, fighting etc?

Well we do alot of training and conditioning. We also have a Iron Wire set within black tiger.We do alot of iron body training and as far as fighting.Everything we do is geared towards combat.We don’t have any flashy tournament forms everything is broken down to combat application.We spar using no pads or gloves.We train using dummies made from wood,cement,and iron.

jmd161:)

Grandmaster Wong Cheung

Here’s a few pictures of my Sigung.

Hi JMD,

Your might want to check out this site:
www.black-tiger.org
It is a Black Tiger School in Hong Kong. The site is in Chinese, so I’ll just give your some links to the more interesting pages (more pictures less chinese, I am assuming you can’t read chinese).

Near the bottom of this page, they’ll have some of the traditional training equipments and dummy used for Black tiger school

http://www.black-tiger.org/Content.htm

the founder of Black Tiger in HK practicing his form on steel dummy

http://www.black-tiger.org/gear.htm

pictures of some of sword techniques
http://www.black-tiger.org/Sward.htm

pictures of some of the fist techniques
http://www.black-tiger.org/KingKong.htm

This is a pretty cool school. No tuition, they are teaching just to keep the tradition alive. Thought you might find it interesting.

and one more thing, you might want to put an index.htm or index.html in every web directory of your account at yahoo-geocities. It keeps other people from peeking at all the files you have on the web. Just a friendly suggestion.

WM

hey jmd, isn’t this your sigung (the top row of three) working the grinder dummy?

http://www.black-tiger.org/gear.htm

cheers

thanks for those links btw WM :slight_smile:

jmd, the geo cities links aren’t working for me.

Thank’s for the info that is my Sigung’s school

hey jmd, isn’t this your sigung (the top row of three) working the grinder dummy?

Hey Kung Lek,

Yeah that is my sigung in the pictures.I can’t believe my eyes we’re trying to reunite my sifu with his kung fu brothers now.I found one in Texas that travels back and forth to Hong Kong and even he did not know who’s running the school now.

WanderingMonk,

How did you find this site i’ve searched high and low and could not find any info on the web about the Hong Kong School?I just called my sifu and he thinks it’s the local school that is teaching Black Tiger.My sifu and his si dai’s and si suk’s used to teach there for free.You’re right i don’t understand how to read chinese i can get by speaking a little ,but reading it is a different story.

To Che WanderingMonk (Thank You)

jmd:)

Black Tiger training …ouch!!!

Would you believe this is what we use on our arms?

It swings hitting you on your arms top and bottom.It’s solid concrete.

jmd:)

Hi JMD,

If you try to search thru english search engine for hong kong black tiger school’s website, you’ll probably be out of luck (since the site is in Chinese).

I hang out on a Chinese board which discuss CMA. One of the regulars who visit the board is an instructor at the HK black tiger school. Basically, we just finished discussing how those traditional “stone-locks” (stone weights) are used and develop arm strength. Actually, he explained and I listened. He is basically offering free instruction to anyone who want to join, but they only practice on the weekend.

Also, the stone-lock training is hard. It came straight out of shaolin. It is one of the method that the originator of black tiger school learned at shaolin. It is listed as one of shaolin’s 72 Training method.

Anyways, saw your thread today. You were very sincere/dedicated to the art and thought you might like the link.

peace.

wm

ps, they do have an email address on the site. So, your sifu can get in touch with kungfu brothers back home thru e-mail if he wish.

oh, if your sifu is interested and can’t find the address on the site (if you don’t have the proper software, you won’t be able to read chinese over the web). Let me know and I’ll get it for you.

I sent an e-mail to them last night.

WanderingMonk,

I sent an e-mail to them i don’t know if they’ll be able to read it.My sifu is not into tech stuff he’s never used a computer before.Infact he purchased one it sat for about 6months ,and one day when i went to train he told me to take the computer home with me.So he has me do all the talking over the internet and then when i find someone who knows him or my sigung i give them his phone number.That’s how i was able to find his sidai in texas.

Are there any programs out there that can translate chinese for me?I looked into a couple ,but i kept hearing from others they were’nt good for chinese.

Also do you happen to know the instructors name? My sifu was the Chairman of the Association before he left Hong Kong and came to the U.S.I was trying to find a phone number on the site so my sifu could call.He was very happy to hear that someone was still teaching Black Tiger at the school.After sigung died he was not sure who was running the school.My sifu teaches me the same way for free.Although it’s free not many people stay with black tiger,because the training is so hard.Right now there’s only two of us with my sifu.Most people are not willing to come work out for 6hrs at a time with no break and no slacking.My sifu is tough but it’s well worth it.He has taught me so much both inside and outside of martial arts.

Also, the stone-lock training is hard. It came straight out of shaolin. It is one of the method that the originator of black tiger school learned at shaolin. It is listed as one of shaolin’s 72 Training method.

Yeah all of the training we do is still from the old days.I don’t think anything has changed as far as the training tools go.We still use the stone locks my sifu makes them himself.We still use The Grinder Dummy which is stone and iron and both rows of arms move.We still use the 108 plumb blossom dummies.My sifu does’nt teach you the first form Black Tiger Jong until you can hold a deep horse stance for at least 1hr.

if you don’t have the proper software, you won’t be able to read chinese over the web

I was able to find the e-mail address on the site ,but i replyed in english. :eek: 'Doh!! I don’t know if the sifu there speaks english or not.

I noticed on the forum linked to the site that someone else replyed in english who you could tell was of chinese decent.If you could tell me about some software i could use i’d be forever in your debt?I try to post on every site known to mankind to help my sifu he really wants to unite the school back together.Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught each person 1/3 of black tiger because he felt it was too much for one person to learn the entire style.The 1/3 my sifu knows is over 50 forms by itself.His sidai in texas has another 1/3 and there are two sidai’s in New York and a sihing of his in Cali.

Thanks for everything and anymore help you’re able to give me.

Jeff :slight_smile:

Hi JMD,

About the HK school, it is being run by Sifu Wong Yau Ming’s students. (I speak only mandrain with minimal cantonese experiences from watching too many HK TV. So, if I translate the pronounciation into cantonese wrong, you’ll have to excuse me.)

I think the HK school webmaster’s clan name is choi (cai in mandrain). According to the site, he trained with elderest KF brother Lee Jet-sin and second elder KF brother choi ming-jing.

I think he’ll be able to read English okay after looking at his guestbook, don’t know about his english speaking skills though.

He listed a phone number on
http://www.black-tiger.org/course.htm
(8 digits number). He didn’t list the area code for HK. (I don’t like posting people’s number over the web). If you call him, keep the time-zone difference in mind.

From the site/guestbook, I believe that they (he and his KF brothers) know total of thirty forms. They’re trying to revive the tradition in HK and are looking for 1st generation students of Master Wong (their sigung?) or any other black tiger stylists who can help.

I can’t recommend any Chinese-English software b/c I don’t use them. I’ll suggest
a free software at
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
It is supposed to translate foreign language sites. I just tried it and the Chinese-English translation is atrocious. But, if you are just trying to get a general idea, it might be good for it.

Finally, I like to ask two questions about black tiger training. You said that your master didn’t teach you until you can hold a horse stance for an hour. May I ask how did you ramp up your time in the horse stance? Did it take you a month, 3 months, etc? How many time did you practice in a day? I am thinking about increase my horse stance time, but I don’t want to do it too quick and cause damages.

When you use the stone-locks, do you use it to condition the part of the forearm that’s closer to the elbow or do you condition the area closer to the wrist?

thanks.

wm

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
[B]Finally, I like to ask two questions about black tiger training. You said that your master didn’t teach you until you can hold a horse stance for an hour. May I ask how did you ramp up your time in the horse stance? Did it take you a month, 3 months, etc? How many time did you practice in a day? I am thinking about increase my horse stance time, but I don’t want to do it too quick and cause damages.

When you use the stone-locks, do you use it to condition the part of the forearm that’s closer to the elbow or do you condition the area closer to the wrist?

thanks.

wm [/B]

WanderingMonk,

It took about 3 months of training everyday well just about everyday.The secret is to find some thing to focus on.When you focus on something it helps take your mind off of the stance.Usually i did fist sets or punching drills and it helps.Just sit in the stance as long as you can then come up and rest for 1 minute and go back down.I did the stance whenever i could at work or home while taking a leak.lol

The stone locks go from the wrist to the elbows.It takes up that entire area.Don’t start with them though work on your arms before you try using the stone locks.Get a pole about 8ft long and 8-10 in around.Bang your arms on that before you move up to the stone locks.

If you have any questions just ask.I’m going to pm my e-mail address to you.

I tried to pm you just e-mail me at jmd161@hotmail.com.

jeff :slight_smile:

Hi JMD,

Thanks for answering.

If I have more question, I’ll send you an e-mail. Good luck with contacting HK black tigers.

bye

WM