Copying stuff from KFO onto HFY108 looks like, and makes about as much sense, as a bunch of undergrad Arts students deconstructing The Onion in Semiotics 101.
Jeez, GET A LIFE.
Oy! I am not a member of the Rene Ritchie fan club. I just wanted to balance one of the comments that seemed, to me, to suggest that he was the only person to use anti-Manchu societies in fiction - he might be the first to publish fiction entwining these societies with WCK, who knows?
But if you follow that tack why not fire off missives to other wuxia writers like Jin Yong? Surely he is also guilty re-writing the “history” of Hung Fa Wui in his fiction?
If you make your research publicly available then you cannot really complain when someone uses it in a work of fiction. It might be a different thing if he was writing “A History of Wing Chun Kuen”, but he is not. Even then he is perfectly within bounds of academic practice to quote from existing works.
Chee,
For the sake of clarity, exactly nothing used in thise book was ever first publically mentioned by the VTM. Their research, while excellent in its own right, is simply not applicable to a work based on the Yim Wingchun legend. Their origins stories, as they themselves point out, follow a very different path.
However, I am flattered by all the interest 
Rene,
Sorry for muddying the waters. To prevent any confusion I’d better stop posting on this subject.
Nah, don’t worry about it. That’s reason for places like this.
Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. - Rene Ritchie
- If Wong Wah-Bo liked to break for tea between SLT, CK, and BJ, and Yik Kam did not, that probably tells us more about personal preference than seniority.
- Since Leung Yee-Tai didn’t have any students independant from WWB (Leung Jan is often linked to both of them), it makes it impossible to tell if he liked the tea-break, or the non-tea-break approach.
- Rene Ritchie
Rene,
Trying to help out a friend is an admirable trait. Lying to the public is not.
Intorduction to Complete Wing Chun
Over time, Wing Chun’s real history has become a mish-mash of factual accounts and fictionalized stories. Early secrecy and modern marketing did much to create and fuel the confusion. Legends like Ng Mui and Yim Wing-Chun are believed to be the sole founders of the art and a single lineage through Leung Bok-Chao, Leung Lan-Kwai, Wong Wah-Bo, and Leung Yee-Tai to Leung Jan has become accepted as the only branch.
The doors of Wing Chun, however, were never this closed, nor the line this limited. Over the generations, many highly skilled masters of the past have learned the art, contributed enormously to its development, and passed along their knowledge. Yet, masters such as Cheung “Tan Sao” Ng and many of the Red Junk actors like “Dai Fa Min” Kam, “Gao Lo” Chung, “Hung Gan” Biu and their descendents have disappeared entirely from all but a very few records.
Fist of the Red Junk Opera
by Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu, & Hendrik Santo
Zhang Wu, also known as Zhang Xin (Cheung Hin), hailed from Hubei and worked as a singer in Beijing. Highly accomplished in opera, excellent in both music and drama, Zhang was also said to be unsurpassed in martial skill, especially the techniques of “Shaolin” (Siu Lum, Young Forest, though it is not clear whether this was Henan Shaolin Temple boxing system proper, or the so-called Shaolin-School which included many related and unrelated “external” arts).
Due to his performances, which expressed anti-Qing sentiments, Zhang was forced to flee the capitol. He settled in Foshan where he became known as Tan Shou Wu (Tan Sao Ng). There are several explanations given as to the origins of this nickname. One account held his tan (dispersing) arm was peerless throughout the martial arts world. A second account related he suffered from minor tan (polio, paralysis) in his left arm. A final account maintained that when he first arrived in Foshan, he survived by singing songs near the opera docks and holding out his tan (spread out) hand for money (perhaps while he became familiar with the local dialect).
Eventually, Zhang took on a number of Red Junk performers as disciples, and founded the Qianghua Huiguan (King Fa Wui Goon, Precious Jade Flower Union) Hall, in some accounts referred to as the Honghua Huiguan (Hung Fa Wui Goon, Red Flower Union), at Dajiwei (Dai Gei Mei), where he taught the traditional Jianghu Shiba Ben (Gong Wu Sup Baat Bun, Eighteen Plays of River & Lake). Later generations would regard him as the “great teacher” and zu shi (jo si, founder) of the modern Cantonese opera.
Now look who is adding to the “mish-mash” again if your story changes every time you want to publish a different book or article it stands to show either your incompetence as a researcher or your insincerity as gentleman or both.
“Again if your story changes every time you want to publish a different book or article it stands to show either your incompetence as a researcher or your insincerity as gentleman or both.”
Actually it is a good sign when the story changes when you have new information. That is why we progress. Sticking to one story no matter
what the evidence is, is the problem IMO…
Tony:
Trying to help out a friend is an admirable trait. Lying to the public is not.
—Just where is the “lie” here? I don’t see what you are getting at or what you are insinuating, so maybe you just need to spell it out.
Now look who is adding to the “mish-mash” again if your story changes every time you want to publish a different book or article it stands to show either your incompetence as a researcher or your insincerity as gentleman or both.
—Just how did the story change? Maybe you need to read “Complete Wing Chun” and realize that each lineage is given a voice to tell their own story. Those stories quite often don’t agree and actually contradict each other, but from an historical perspective it is an important record of various lineage legends/history. And as Bob pointed out…stubbornly sticking to one version of “history” because “sifu sez” rather than incorporating new evidence is a sign of poor scholarship, not good scholarship. I’m not quite sure what you guys hope to gain by attacking Rene, when he is simply trying to put out a fun book that would appeal to Wing Chun people. Chill out. 
Keith
Tony,
How come Pan Nam, a “wing” chun practitioner mainly, studies some “Weng” Chun and gets a new history that he uses to link “Wing” Chun can tell us what he believes Yat Chum’s possible teaching comes from but nobody else is willing to come up with any sort of DNA?
You promote Pan Nam’s info. regularly as evidence for Yat Chum’s Possible “Wing” even tho it came from a “Weng” Chun sorce and not “Wing” Chun source.
Do you agree with his DNA or are you just using his Weng history to support your believe even tho the two arts dont have much in common? Which one of these arts are your military and monk combo to create “Wing”:
According to the Pan Nam accounts, Yat Chum Um Jee was a 22nd generation Siu Lam disciple who founded a temple on Mt. Heng in the province of Hunan in the mid 18th century. There, Yat Chum taught a collection of martial arts to a carefully selected group of students including a man named Cheung Ng (“Tan Sao” Ng). It is suggested that Yat Chum’s method came from a distillation of Shaolinquan (Young Forest Boxing), Taijiquan (Great Ultimate Boxing), Yingzhaoquan (Eagle Claw Boxing), Jingangzhang (Diamond Palm a.k.a. Buddhist Palm), Qin Na (Joint-Locking), Tonglongquan (Mantis Boxing), etc.
Since we are talking about history “evolution” then maybe you should remember that the modern history of Yat Chum coming thru your lineage originally stated Yat Chum-Cheung Ng-Red Boat but later 3-4 more generations were added in when the time lines seemed to be a bit off. Pan Nam’s Weng history states: Yat Chum-Cheung Ng-Red Boat.
Please hold yourself to the same level of judgement you are holding Rene and others to! Stories evolve! Stories get more details little by little over the years. Stories find more or less likely stuff over the years. If this was not the case then we could just take anyones word for it! Sifu Sez is not good enough for us so we use all available info. and discuss it with an open mature mind versus this is it mentality.
BTW: What does all this have to do with Rene’s “Fiction”?
Regards,
My actual personal theory on WCK history hasn’t changed that much over the last few years, and is still fundementally different than that proposed by the VTM and Hendrik.
I still lean towards the Red Junk developing Siu Lien Tao based on the Weng Chun White Crane we know was already trained there, combined with a thusfar unspecified other system or systems, potentially of Hakka (which we also know was on the Red Junk) or Sichuan (which we know came into Guangdong along the migration routes) origin. This proto-SLT was passed down as 1 very long set by Yik Kam, and 3 shorter sets by Wong Wah-Bo (with both versions containing the same essential core), while an earlier version closer to the Weng Chun roots was passed on by Dai Fa Min Kam.
However, just because I have my theory doesn’t mean others can’t or shouldn’t have theirs, and that there isn’t value in having many theories to work with, including the ones from people like Pan Nam’s reporter friend. Even in ‘hard’ science there are often multiple theories, and one day’s ‘fact’ is the next’s ‘questionable’ or ‘disproven’.
Is coffee good for me? Almost every day I read or see another expert medical/scientific opinion saying ‘yes!’ or ‘no!’. Opinions in most things vary. It’s not worth anger or hatred.
But Jim is right, this thread is about a fictional story, a legend. It’s something that can be enjoyed beyond history, and can help motivate and inspire us, to help us experience the rich culture of our art, and something we can share with others so that, perhaps, they can understand a little better why we love it so much.
Another preview drops tomorrow!
Table of contents/‘see inside the book’ coming real soon!
Keith,
Not to polute the discussion with facts, but on page 14 of the Yuen Kay-San book (1997, Unique Publications), it also says “Histories of the Guangdong Opera hold that Red Junk Companies were organized into the Hung Fa Wui Goon (Red Flower Union) in the 1730s by Northern Opera and Siu Lam (Shaolin) practitioner Cheung Ng…”
One of the problems with the internet is that I could claim you killed my cat even though we live in different parts of North America and that I never owned a cat, and people might read it and actually believe it. Even if you spent a lot of time to present hard evidence that you didn’t kill my non-existant cat, three months later another newb could just bring it up again, or the same one for whatever silly reason, and try to make you waste your effort all over again and again and again…
Amused
Hi there,
You know…I am actually amused by this thread. People tend to get annoyed at the littlest of things. I for one love what Rene is doing with his story exactly because of that…it’s a story. He’s taking his writting abilities and knowledge of various sources and building up from there. I like the progression that the story is taking…at least on the preview installments. Now my question is, how many of you enjoyed The Prodigal Son? It’s the same idea! Can anyone claim it’s actaually history? NO…but it’s based on some. And who knows how many different sources they had in order to build the story behind the movie up! Life is about living and evolving and that’s an ‘everlasting’ concept. The day we stop evolving is the day we die…and even at that some of us hopefuls believe our souls will keep evolving after that until we attain perfection.
Now as for history…I’m pretty sure many of us were exposed frist to the Yip Man story or a variation thereof. It went something like this…Ng Mui–>Yim Wing Chun–>Leung Bok Chau–>(Leung Lan Gwai)–>Wong Wah Bo/Leung Yee Tai–>Dr. Leung Jan–Chan Wah Shun–>Yip Man. This is what I was first exposed to at least. It really left me with questions as I am naturally curious. Then I started getting a tad more involved and started probing into Qing era history. Then I joined a Kwoon many years ago and was exposed to Jason Lau’s lineage and their version of things which still left me with more questions. I didn’t last last ther long but continued following up on Wing Chun. Then the internet started to take shape as we know it today and I started poking some more. The first article that I found was a response given by Marty Golberg to John Clayton…guess what, more questions on my part. Then Rene came into the scene and I had to throw everything that I knew or had read up until then out the window. I was taken aback on how many lineages and stories were out there all pertaing to Weng/Wing Chun Kuen. I thought I was in paradise reading, cross referncing, drawing some conclusions, etc. Now as of recent we had Benny Meng and the Wing Chun Museum an they have an interesting insight from the Hung Fa Yi perspective into what the early years of Wing Chun would have been like. Now thanks, to the good lord above, I have started physically training again and am being exposed to the uniqueness of Fut Sau Wing Chun. Do you see the progression? I can almost state Bruce Lee’s words in that I have in a way ‘found(somewhat) the cause of my ignorance’. Progression and evolution THAT my friends is the beauty of life.
Just two taels from the doctor…don’t take my words to heart. They are just humble opinions.
careful wording as you warned others before!
Rene.
still lean towards the Red Junk developing Siu Lien Tao based on the Weng Chun White Crane we *know* was already trained there, combined with a thusfar unspecified other system or systems, potentially of Hakka (which we also know was on the Red Junk) or Sichuan (which we know came into Guangdong along the migration routes) origin. This proto-SLT was passed down as 1 very long set by Yik Kam, and 3 shorter sets by Wong Wah-Bo (with both versions containing the same essential core), while an earlier version closer to the Weng Chun roots was passed on by Dai Fa Min Kam.
–on the issues that you say that we “know” please explain how we “know” these things based on what documentation?
– Your theory on a SLT based on “Weng Chun White Crane” based on what? Pictures of a simular hand shape? and one lineage claiming WCWC roots?
– where did you get Wong Wah-bo began teaching 3 shorter sets? different then others before him?
I find it odd that you begin your post from " I’m leaning" and then go with we “we know”. maybe you could provide some foot notes and cross references for what you have listed as fact here.
just some thoughts
Chango
if you demand something of someone else don’t be suprized if they demand the same from you. LOL!
Hello Chango,
I know this was not directed towards me but I thought I would jump in!
– where did you get Wong Wah-bo began teaching 3 shorter sets? different then others before him?
Yik Kam & Leung Yee Tai both did One Set!
All known lineages tracing back to Wong Wah Boh state the 3 fist sets were originally One Set. That includes Yuen Kay San, Leung Jan and others.
The only other traceable lineage I believe is Dai Fa Min Kam which was not “Wing” but “a” version of “Weng” Chun.
Leung Jan originally trained with Wong Wah Boh but later Wong Wah Boh sent him to train with Leung Yee Tai. Leung Yee Tai was the reported source of him learning the so-called Woman’s style Wing Chun. The reason they state it is the Woman’s style is because Wong Wah Boh was already a Crane guy before learning the Wing Chun. His size or structure was large compared to his classmates. He seems to be the source of what is often refered to as the modern Man’s style WCK which is more likely a blend of his knowledge. Since Wong sent him to learn with Yee Tai then there must have been more for him to learn about WCK.
Personally! I really could care less how many forms WCK had be it one, three or none! But! Since this is a discussion regarding more likely or less likely possibilities based on all the available info. we can use it to see whats possible what.
I think the big issue here is that if WCK was originally One Set as Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam lineages all say it was then I can understand how it may bother those who believe their art is the original if it contains CK & BJ??? In the end I still dont think it matters but it makes for interesting discussions.
Just some possibilities.
Peace,
Hey Jim,
I’m not sure I understand the confusion between ABC and A-B-C. If someone teaches the Yip Man Siu Nim Tao but breaks after Saam Pai Fut and before the Bong Sao’s at the end, is it impossible to see its still Siu Nim Tao?
Also, Lee Man-Mao was leader of the Red Junk. Lee Man Mao was a White Crane boxer.
RR,
I’m not sure I understand the confusion between ABC and A-B-C. If someone teaches the Yip Man Siu Nim Tao but breaks after Saam Pai Fut and before the Bong Sao’s at the end, is it impossible to see its still Siu Nim Tao?
I agree with you!
Its not the form, forms or loose stuff that matters.
Bong, Tan, Fook etc. etc. are the WCK tools! So, take one piece and do it over and over or do a bunch of pieces in one shot. Its the pieces that matter and what drives them.
Fun discussion tho! It should have its own thread! Especially since it has nothing to do with your fiction/stories!
Peace,
Yik Kam & Leung Yee Tai both did One Set!
Hey Jim,
I just have a small question: is this a documented fact or is it part of the oral history. Just curious…thanks in advance.
Hello,
Hey Jim,
I just have a small question: is this a documented fact or is it part of the oral history. Just curious…thanks in advance.
I dont think its legally documented (just like 99% of WCK history isn’t) in historical books but rather oral/family-ies tradition. Yet! The oral tradition seems to jive with the oral traditions of the other families from the same sources and outside sources.
Fung Sang sifu has a massive doctrine written up on the history/teaching of Leung Jan and the teaching of the village. At one point in time he was thinking of publishing it but unfortunately never did. He is advanced in age and not feeling so well these days but maybe one day he will present his research for all of us wolves to pick at! hahahaha
Peace,
1, It is Rene’s baby fiction novel why dont we just have some fun about it and praise Rene’s accomplishement and share his joy?
2,
I dont know about the Leong Yee -Tai part.
However, the Yik Kam’s set is still well preserve with its “operating manual” or Kuen kuit. And, Yik Kam was indeed playing the proper female role actor in the Opera within the Red Boat. Thus, he called his art Ban Chung meaning Within Opera company. Red boat can have lots of different group there. So, again, Red boat is a common name. IMHO, we need to be specific which Group within Red Boat.
I really dont know to classified if “this is a documented fact or is it part of the oral history” any idea?
3,
in addition,
I would like to propose to everyone that it is not enough detail for one just said WCK comes from this or that based on anti-Qing history or stories …etc.
One needs to examine the PLATFORM DNA of the art and that is one major dominon key. The Anti-Qing etc is not as heavy in weight compare with the DNA of the platform.
IE: Take Yee chuan as example, two DNA of the art is obvious. 1, Yee Chuan is an art of Non Broken Arrow platform. 2, Yee Chuan does use KICK as how KICK was used.
similarly, one can also examine the SLT. 1, is it a NON or Broken Arrow platform. 2, is SLT uses KICK as how KICK was used? 3,…
Say Rene believes in Hakka’s art was involve, then what part of hakka DNA can be trace in SLT? and how is Hakka link to White Crane from Fujian…
Thus, to study history meaningfully, the presentation of Demonstration of where the DNA is very likely comes in is very important. Otherwise, it is just one story versus other story, sure it is always fun to argue about stories but it doesnt give any insight to what is the essence the art is presenting. However, stories can be great for writting fiction similar to Rene’s new fun book.
4,
As for Yat Chun’s identity, I would say, it was not proven Yat Chun exist yet.
As I mention before we can check into Shao Lin to comfirn if Yat Chun exist similar to
http://shaolinwushu.tripod.com/sekkohsam.htm
http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=1104931321&page=1
as we can see here even the Shao Lin people is interested in placing one’s art into thier collection. —'The Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts (volume I & II)",
Similarly, one can also check the so called Southern Shao Lin DNA too. Read the story from the above web and see how if Yat Chun fit in? and how is SLT hit in since we have solid data above about what shao lin is like according to the Shao Lin people.
Upto today we have no data about Yat Chun. it will solve lots of issue if Yat Chun believer can provide a traceable trace to Shao LIn.
Similar to the relationship of the Art of Sek Koh Sam with Shao lin temple.
We know the White Crane from Fujian people endose WCK even in thier international meeting. However, does any Shao Lin officially endose WCK as thier decendent? and will Shao Lin buy the story of WCK from Shao lin similar to the traceable late Sek Koh Sam, a martial monk, a Chan master who was legitimate and trace able?
5, As for the Pan Nam’s article, Technically, the way how it describe about the Yang pressure points doesnt mean much. As for the TaiJI, that is another unproven speculation.
IMHHHO