I don’t know a whole lot about wing chun, but I was always under the belief that the style was developed by a woman (whose name was wing chun)whom was trained by a budhist nun. I know that there’s more to the story than that, but that’s the brunt of it.
Now I’m hearing (and reading) that the entire story is a myth, and that in reality wing chun was a style developed as a fighting method by the Tong. Is this really true? Does anyone have any insight into this issue?
no one really knows
The truth is… no one really knows. You’ll get a lot of armchair historians trying to connect the dots, but beyond going back 2 or 3 generations of practitioners, nothing is historically verifiable.
a thought
A few lineages (Hung Fa Yi, Pan Nam) point to Jeung Ngh (Cheung Ng) as first generation successor of the style. Jeung Ngh is recorded in Cantonese Opera history books as the founder of Cantonese Opera. There are historical artifacts in China of the Kihng Fa Gun, an organization established by Jeung Ngh. He was recored as being in Fatsan (Foshan, Faatshan,etc.) sometime in the early 1700’s.
If Wing Chun comes from a Buddhist Nun, how much Buddhism is taught in the various lineages? I know from personal experience that Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi both talk extensively about Chan philosophy while the Yip Man lineage (for the most part) does not (Moy Yat did talk about Zen (aka Chan)).
Hung Fa Yi oral legends trace to Yat Cham Dai Si while Chi Sim traces its origins to Chi Sim as the Shaolin monks. These lineages have different approaches to history, training, and combat yet share a similarity in regards to Chan.
More information is out there. Take a look at this month’s issue of Wushu-Kungfu. There is an article about Jeung Ngh aka “Taan Sau” Ngh.
Jeremy R.
… opportunityisnowhere…
… was that no where…
…or now here…
the story of wing chun and the nun is truth.. that other storie is a load of ****
-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-
troy,
were you there? how could you say that you know the truth? just curious! base on what to give you the right to call someone full of s***?
Netfist
Although the “fighting nun” theory makes for popular legend, check out the latest fairly scholarly study:
http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/article.php?sid=24
China is often under oppressive gov’s who attempt to keep the people defenseless and thus easier to control. Hence, martial arts was often suppressed underground. Fables are created and other measures are taken as self-protective measures. Which is good for their survival at the time, but very confusing for the general public and historians later on!
The prevalent legend pleases me.
I like to think that the art was originally developed by two small women. It makes understanding a lot of the principles much easier - the low center of gravity, the power in punches not being fully dependent on upper body strength, etc etc.
In the final analysis, it doesn’t matter what the “true” origins of Wing Chun are. The art stands on its own 
peace,
Jas
Passing_through, another thought
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year
– Henry Wadsworth Longfellow[/quote]
The above opening from the famed poem cemented Paul Revere’s place in American folklore. It was written in 1860, 85 years after the event. Just because someone wrote it down doesn’t make it correct. The real history also speaks of William Dawes and Dr. Samuel Prescott. Since Dr. Prescott was the only one to evade British capture, who really knows what happened on that fateful night? Besides, what rhymes with “Dawes” and “Prescott?”
Since I became interested in Ving Tsun (1979), I have read and heard all sorts of stories regarding its style – It comes from the hall of the same name at Shaolin; Ng Moi was a woman; Yim Ving Tsun was a drag queen; All those names were stage names; … etc. The craziest stories I’ve heard had to do with Ving Tsun evolving from western fisticuffs brought over to China with Marco Polo at the end of the 13th century.
There is something, however, I cannot reconcile with the “new revelations” regarding the style’s origins. If Ng Moi was a fictitious figure made up to cover the tracks of the counter-revolutionary activities of the Red Boat Opera Company, how do more than a few styles of Kungfu much older than Ving Tsun also speak of a Buddhist nun from Shaolin named Ng Moi?
Another thing, I believe the “new” stories actually have been written about for decades, though rarely, if ever, in english. I recall a conversation between two of my sihings - your sibaks, I think - shortly after Rene Richie’s “Complete” book was published but before the magazine articles started appearing. They both trained in Hong Kong and remembered a Hung Seung school not far from where they trained. When I asked them what “Hung Sueng” meant in english they said “Red Flower” - note that “sueng” translates as “boat” as I later learned. They even could recall a name or two of people they knew who trained there. Even in the ultracompetitive subculture of Kungfu in Hong Kong, they all knew each other and what each other was about.
I once asked a wise old man - you may remember him 
- what his take was on the origins of Ving Tsun. Though he quoted someone else, this is what he said:
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it; those who fail to learn from history correctly, they are simply doomed. The important word is ‘from,’ not ‘correct.’ In other words, history is about today, not yesterday.”
He then smiled and said: “When I talk about Ving Tsun, if you don’t hear the voice of a little girl, then either I’m a bad sifu or you’re talking too much.”
Take care, Jeremy.
what is the real lineage?
[This message was edited by freestyle on 05-11-01 at 08:04 PM.]
sorry
let me rephrase it.. i belive that the story of the nun and wing chun is true, and i believe the other is full of ****..
thats just my opinin thats all it is
-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-
Actually the recent theory is the more likely, however a woman may have influenced the art at some point but not during the shaolin period, nuns and monks were not quartered in the same dwellings and the nun theory is not true to the history of those times, however I don’t completely discount it nor do I belive it is an accurate representation of fact.
just my 2 cents worth
Peace
I heard somewhere that Ng Mei wasn’t described in the history of WC before yip man. Maybe she was maybe she wasn’t! I was thinking about WC and came up with the following conclusion: I believe that throughout history great knowledge is attained…and as time passes it is lost. Look at the egyptians…i saw they moved enoumous blocks of solid rock that even today, they cannot be moved with strongest cranes in the world. …back to WC however, There were probably systems of kung-fu that have been lost over time that were possibly more superior to the ones that exist today, but we will never really know. I think wing chun was developed as a synthesis of the best systems of MA of that time.
My point is this, i believe yip man saw the WC system for what it was and knew that over time it would dilute from generation to generation…and in 200 years onwards it would probably be totally different to what it was intended to be or how it origionally worked. This is why he introduced the character of Ng Mei. What will the people of the future generations really have to go on as a point of reference to what WC really is? This ‘myth’ is going to stay with WC forever and if when you’re practicing your say to yourself “These techniques couln’t stop someone stronger that me”, then you there is somthing else that existed at one time that could. :eek:
Sure it can be video taped…but the essence of WC cannot be captured in film. It is a feeling and naming the concepts cannot maintain this putity that it derived from. What better than saying a woman invented the system? For if a woman can use it then we know it’s about structure rather than muscle, and control without brute strength.
What do you think?
S.Teebas
Yim Wing Chun must have been some huge lady. I’m thinkin of polish weightlifting chicks. Okay, there are alot of theories,Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie wrote a book outlining many other wing chun systems and their origins. Yang Jwin-Ming in his book Fukien White crane shows another theory. That Fong Qinyiang, a woman who inherited Fukien White Crane lived in Young Chun (wing Chun) village, and her Gung-Fu was called Wing Chun White Crane.She might also have been called Fong Wing Chun. who knows? Then there are the wing chun guys, who claim that wing chun was invented as a new super style to teach fighting in a shorter amount of time, and to combat the fighting that was already being taught at siu-lum. I don’t buy this for one minute
hey guys,
tom already said the red flower wing chun clan has been known in hong kong for over decades. but its only known for a handfull of people. its origin might be even longer than yip man’s ng moi/yim wing chun story. then, how could anyone say this is * new * about wing chun? it might be new to us as outsiders but its been for a long time both in hong kong and china.
another thought about ng moi, there were many kung fu styles all claimed their arts came from ng moi the nun, could anyone please tell me how could that be possibe for one single person spreading out all these arts? was she just a myth for most kung fu families easy to relate ?
before yip man, there was nothing said about ng moi and wing chun were related in history. just for one single source , how could we 100% sure about yip man’s story was the only true history?
on another note, yip man’s second teacher leung bik was also in question? someone had mentioned that there was no such person leung bik in other forum.
for the red flower or red boat wing chun, that name wasnt new to my chinese friends from china. imo, no one can be 100% sure about true origin of wing chun history.
Netfist
Then maybe wing chun doesn’t really exist?
Has anyone else heard that it’s supposedly a combination of Tai chi, Bagua, and Hsing-I? 
no
but someone did once tell me that it came from Vikings! True story.
Vikings! Are you serious:?!! Could you tell the story?
Leung Bik.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> … yip man’s second teacher leung bik was also in question? someone had mentioned that there was no such person leung bik in other forum [/quote]
Leung Bik is, at least, a real person. My sifu met him. He and Yip Ching helped Yip Man bury him.
How much Yip Man may have learned from him, no one really knows. He was not Yip Man’s teacher, though, but merely his Sibak.
You give credit to your sifu, because without him, the environment to learn would never have existed. In reality, you learn from your sihings, sidai, sibaks, sisuks, your simo, etc. and, mostly, on your own from within.
The best someone trying to help you can hope is for you to be gently guided towards a truth that comes close to pure Ving Tsun. However, most, at times, allow their own voice to drown out the voice of their ancestors.
leung bik?
tom kagan,
as you mentioned your sifu(?) and yip ching helped yip man to bury leung bik. that’s a very interesting to know where’s the place they bury the leung bik, the son of leung jan, i’m sure there’re many wing chun practioners would like go to visit his grave and pay respect to him. can you follow up this ? also i’m wondering if the VTM care about this? personally i think this is very important to perserve this part of history for the wing chun community.
Netfist
yip man> leung sheung> kenneth chung> patrick au> me
Netfist,
I believe the only surviving person who knows this would be my sibak: Yip Ching.
I am still working on paying the proper respect to my sifu, sigung, sitaigung, and gunggung. When I finally am paying the proper respect to all my ancestors, then, maybe, I’ll have suceeded in paying respects to my gunggung’s son. For now, I am happy to know there won’t be pictures of people practicing chisao on his grave.