>>>>>For now, I am happy to know there won’t be pictures of people practicing chisao on his grave.<<<<<
No kidding. Ip Man’s grave is enough of a tourist attraction.
Re:Tom
Tom,
Nice to read from you! How are you doing? Things are great here - busy as always. 
I understand your quote “He then smiled and said: “When I talk about Ving Tsun, if you don’t hear the voice of a little girl, then either I’m a bad sifu or you’re talking too much.””. However, I think that statements in this vien have been misconstrude many times in the past and keep bringing to light many politics in Wing Chun. For my Sigung, Moy Yat, his statement is correct. However, for a Sifu from another lineage, this could be an insult. If their lineage does not hold with Yim Wing Chun, stories about a girl have nothing to do with them or their gung fu. Therefore, to relate Yim Wing Chun to good gung fu or being a good Sifu is a very dangerous statement to be made publicly. Critical listening skills are sorely lacking at times… 
In the Cantonese Opera history, they refer to Jeung Ngh as “Taan Sau” Ngh. The histories also state that he was known for his martial prowess and his one taan sau was peerless under heaven.
Up until very recently, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun was known as Hung Syun Wing Chun (Red Boat Wing Chun). This was the public name for the art and was used when talking in front of outsiders. Only recently has Sifu Gee begun using the name Hung Fa Yi. In Complete Wing Chun the name used for the lineage was Hung Suen (Red Boat).
Your comment “Even in the ultracompetitive subculture of Kungfu in Hong Kong, they all knew each other and what each other was about.” is perhaps a little too general. Different lineages kept different inforation private. I have heard from members of the Chi Sim family that when Yip Man came to visit they would change what they were practicing to keep certain information hidden.
There was a famous book written in the late 1800s or early 1900s called 10,000 Years Green that talked about the famous 5 elders of Shaolin and how they fought against the Qing and created many styles. Much of the popular history that is taught for several southern styles (such as Wing Chun, Huo Fa Quan, Hung Gar, Bak Mei) have more in common with this book than with current Chinese archeology and historical research. Towards the end of the book, the 5 elders end up fighting each other…
Most martial artists are not historians and do not do historical research. They tend to do martial arts research 
So it is very easy to see why myths and legends get passed from generation to generation. The problem starts to arise when people blindly cling to a story for no reason other than “The Grand Master said so! Who are you to contradict the Grand Master!?” Blind obedience to a leader is dangerous in any situation.
The Southern Shaolin was destroyed sometime in the late 1600’s - I have two differnt sources that name two different dates. The Hung Syun Hei Ban (Red Boat Opera Troupe), from which Wing Chun spread, was in existance from the early 1820’s to 1855. If Wing Chun comes from Shaolin and you try to follow the common oral histories, you end up with 2 or 3 generations covering about 150 to 180 years. That seems highly unlikely given the average lifespan in China at that time, the living condidtions, rebellious activities, etc.
Any theory is potentially valid because you can’t prove a theory. A theory exists to explain an observed or known fact. You can only disprove one with new facts. I can think of several facts that call into question the existance of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun. I can not find any facts to call into question the existance of Jeung Ngh. Does this mean I dismiss Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun as meaningless fairy stories? No because it is part of the history. Also, if I close my eyes to it, I might miss something to support it. I have read Sifu Leung Ting’s book on the history of Wing Chun and he has some interesting ideas. Do I agree with everything he concluded - no. Do I ignore his findings - no. He has given us a different way to view things. Perhaps this will lead to further research. By taking the time to reseach and publish his findings he is helping all of us to find our roots.
Suppose research was done to prove one style was the origins of the art. Does that negate all other lineages? No. The history of Wing Chun, the Wing Chun style itself, is comprised of all lineages of Wing Chun - from China, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Canada, the US, Brazil, Europe, Australia… everywhere. Wing Chun is today because of the many paths it traveled in the past. Searching for where we came from is just a part of the study of this art. I think the bigger question is where are we going - personally and as a style/art/system.
Jeremy R.
There are several articles to read at the Ving Tsun Museum’s website
I would suggest:
From Shaolin to Wing Chun
Putting Myths to Rest
Do Secret Soceties give Kung Fu a Bad Rep?
Wing Chun History - an alternative viewpoint by Sifu David Peterson
… opportunityisnowhere…
… was that no where…
…or now here…
[This message was edited by passing_through on 05-14-01 at 10:03 AM.]
Re: Daedalus
Your question that started this whole thread mentioned the Tong. I would suggest you read last two articles listed in the post about for answers to that.
To say the “Tong” created Wing Chun is a very general statement. Which Tong? The Saam Hap Wui, the Dai Dou Wui, the Siu Dou Wui, the Hung Fa Wui, the Hung Muhn (Hong Moon), etc… were all “Tong” that were active in China’s past and are still active today.
That’s like saying business sucks. Which business? All businesses? Too genearal a statement to answer to any significant degree.
“THE Tong” didn’t create Wing Chun. Perhaps “a Tong” did. You know what I mean?
Jeremy R.
… opportunityisnowhere…
… was that no where…
…or now here…
passing_through …
Yip Man was not stupid. He knew exactly what went on when he visited others. Why? Because he played the same game when people visited him. Brilliant teachers have a way of seeing through the posturing and observing the nature of movement regardless of attempts at hiding it. This was one of the reasons why Yip Man would say “yes, it’s correct” to two seemingly at-odds ideas. Others would look at it and think he had lost it because it’s not what they saw.
Are you an historian or a martial artist? You may think the two can coexist and you can excell at both, but I cannot control that thought. However I give you a question to ponder: If you mix every color together, what color do you get?
about the teachers knew what other lineages do that isnt always true. in hong kong now if you learn ving tsun in some school you wouldnt know anyone or any other systems.
true story
at the ving tsun conference at yip mans tomb everyone was standing around and william cheung was standing next to someone from hong kong and they introduced themselves>
hi my name is @#$%^
hi my name is grandmaster william cheung
who
grandmaster william cheung you havent heard of me???
i see this as really funny but in their society that is not uncommon it wasnt that he was being smart he just had not heard of him.
who?
Yip Mans Grave
Hey Benny,
I was there too, and I remember that particular conversation. It was very funny. 
Man, was that hill steep or what? It was great to get those drinks.
Yip Mans Grave 2
.. but thinking about it, I was pretty sure the guy who introduced himself to WC was australian or a new zealander…Im sure he had an accent, or is my memory playing up?
:rolleyes:
Rogue
lol,…hahahaha. That’s hilarious. Thanks,… I needed that laugh!
But wait a minute,..are we saying that Yip Man was a member of one of the Tongs?
what happened to rouges post?
i was on my way to post something when i noticed it was gone. Too bad it was damn funny.
anyway I cant find the info i wanted to on the “vicking connection” so here is another origin story.
i say that the people who <invented/compiled/refined/created> Wing Chun Kung Fu, were …
My first idea was it was made by a chinnese doctor who was convined that the mucles you use for Toe Ma were both vital to health and woefully undertrained by walking. (this is a joke, to all my rearfoot draging brothers )
After a few weeks went by and I read a few books I learned the Ng Moi - Yim Wing Chun stories.
Now after about two years I can say with complete confidence:
THEY WERE DAMN SNEAKY BASTERDS!
And I like it.
heh
ps i will keep trying on the vicking thing.
Hey! That’s the second post deleted tonight! And rogue’s was just funny, no ill will toward anyone at all! What gives, “Mr. Deletin’ Guy”?
“Ninja!..NINJA!”-Christopher George, from “Enter the Ninja”
Oh, it must have been an accident!
Here is the essense of rogue’s post:
I thought wing chun was a watered down version of JKD that Bruce Lee taught to Yip Man.
See? A harmless jest!!
“Ninja!..NINJA!”-Christopher George, from “Enter the Ninja”
I got deleted for poking a little fun at JKD on a WC forum, too funny!!!
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it’s hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L’Amour
back to the topic
Wing Chun was created long before I was born, I didn’t invent it. Knowing the history of the art nakes me a better martial artist. When I practice, train, and learn - I am learning history.
Going further, being a Sifu and not trying to find the truth - about history or whatever - is irresponsible.
To walk your own path is your business. To bring your students along your path is dangerous to them.
Jeremy R.
… opportunityisnowhere…
… was that no where…
…or now here…
passing_through - yes, back to the topic.
Perhaps when my own martial prowess becomes peerless under heaven, I will see my nickname as true history.
For now, I am fortunate that the beautiful springtime spread out by the Red Boat Opera Company has touched me and given me everlasting hope.
I guess that’s the major difference between your method and mine. When I practice, I do not learn history. I learn poetry.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Poetry comes nearer to vital truth than history.
Plato [/quote]
[This message was edited by Tom Kagan on 05-24-01 at 12:08 PM.]
wing chun origins
It may be difficult ever to know the exact or true origins of Wing Chun Kuen. The Ng Mui/Yim Wing-Chun story is certainly the widest seen. This story is almost archetypal, however, and used by several Southern Fist traditions almost verbatim (Wing Chun, White Crane, Hung Ga) and others to varying degrees. Chinese culture is rich with allegory, metaphor, numerology, and symbolism, which also makes it difficult to sort history from amidst the different stories. Personally, however, I don’t see it as a literally factual account.
Cheung Ng, increasingly popular, is a verifiable historical figure, tied into Foshan and the Precious Jade Flower Opera Union, which makes the story intriguing. However, there is nothing yet to tie him into Wing Chun (indeed, there is nothing to suggest Wing Chun was even practiced in the 1730s yet). It’s quite possible he practice something different to Wing Chun (hailing from Hubei and working in Beijing, perhaps likely even he practiced norther boxing)
What we do know is that by the mid 1800s, on board the Red Junks, there was Fujian Weng Chun, Fujian White Crane, Hakka fist, and perhaps some form of Sichuan boxing, each of which has some similarities and some differences from Wing Chun.
I’ve sometimes wondered if Wing Chun didn’t evolve over several generations from the knowledge available to the performers (with different performers later spreading slightly different versions). This, to me, explains why we can’t find Wing Chun anywhere else (whereas the systems that were imported to the junks can still be found in the areas in which they’re native), and why it only began to spread following the destruction of the opera by the Qing (if it had come about earlier, performers would have retired in previous generations and taken it back to their home villages as well, thus causing it to spread earlier)
Fortunately, China is becoming more and more open, and records more and more available, and there may soon be more answers (leading, of course, to more questions 8).
Rgds,
Rene Ritchie
Origins of wing chun
Does it matter?
Stories, “real or not”, are entertaiment. As long as you have wing chun in your hands, Everything else is BS.
Everything may be BS, including the “else”. There’s the rub.
Rgds,
RR
Ren Ritchie
I didn’t say “everything” is BS. The Wing Chun ability of the person counts a lot. The story behind the person is irrilivent.
It’s like the end out weight the mean.