I do that same maneuver as a strike, and it’s listed above. But there’s absolutely no reason to lean with it, not even for pure physical power. It’s a strike to the pectoral or neck for a KO.
I never said there was no throwing period in Taiji. What I said was that there was no need to prop up Taiji with another art. And them meeting the floor doesn’t always have to do with being thrown.
It seems to me that to lean requires that one aspect of the spine has to compensate for the change from vertical alignment. Its simple physics that the angle of gravitational acceleration is constant in regards to our bodies. So to lean requires that I “borrow” energy from somewhere else. The only way that my spine can be its most relaxed (when upright) is to have the centre of mass of the head, the chest and the pelvis all aligned.
It would be very hard to find maximum song if you were leaning. So I would say for Taijiquan that verticality is of first importance.
Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are different, as both sometimes “bend” the structure.
As for applications, I have been taught that every movement in Taijiquan has at least one hit, kick, chin-na, shuai-jiao and fajing application. Usually there are very many of each.
At least one classical style of taiji does lean. You can see the lean in the brush knee to the left.
Just noticing that the clip entitled “circle throw” is the same technique as “ude-mawashi”.
Nifty :).
In BaGua & Xing Yi,(and other styles), they mention “Xiong Bei” (Bear’s Back"), which implies a back & neck that is straight (not bending/hunched/lurching), the chest concave, shoulders rounded and pushing/extending down & through the arms; there is a slight lean forward, that helps keeps the whole body “Coiled & loaded” to exert & recieve force. The waist/tailbone is curled under & forward to add compression in stepping/stance and connection between upper & lower body in the center/abdomen. Short Frame Wu Tai Ji people lean slightly forward to exert force in several techniques–they don’t bend the body. The Spine should stay straight, from tail-bone to crown. If there isn’t a slight lean forward, then there’s some “slack” in the center, and the body is slightly disconnected, causing a lack of potential power and “drag time” in execution of technique, especially stepping and in driving out. This is different than the back “hunching” forward, which is not useful or safe; allowing the head to lurch forward (“Leading with the head”) is also dangerous, a sign of lack of focus, sensitivity, balance, and power.
Does that help?
I train 7 star mantis right now but from time to time i still practice the wu tai chi i learned as taught to my instructor by kwong ming lee. you can check out their website too but basically it gives a pretty good physics based reason as to why there is a lean in this particular style. we also did some drills in class to help illustrate the force applied in the “ox plow” stance. when done properly it feels like you’re not even doing anything but your partner goes back. obviously it’s different when people are cooperating with you and someone brought up that by leaning you give someone the chance to pull you off balance. well we also did a drill that illustrated why you keep your feet parallel instead of having the back foot at a 45 degree angle. when your feet are parallel and your but is tucked,etc. it feels like a person in oxplow is pretty stable and during push hands yes if you go forward then you will be pulled on your ass but anyone who know what they’re doing will interpret the lean as incoming force instead of saying “whoa he’s leaning, i can pull”. as long as your force is directed forward you can be pulled even if your back is perpendicular to the floor.
cool, sorry about the long post. cool forum
you’re wrong -
I can apply forwards force and then as soon as I feel someone pulling I can root their pull into my front foot.
If I’m leaning forwards this isn’t possible.
If someone uses pull-down I am able to root their pull-down into my feet.
If I’m leaning forwards this isn’t possible.
I’m not interested in physics theories - I’ve been the person trying to root and the person trying to pull - it feels wrong from either perspective.
If my rear foot is pointing forwards then my Kua point cannot be open, or if it is open then my knee cannot be in correct alignment - either way I’m not going to generate any sort of power/energy from the floor.
But it might work for some styles - I would argue that it violates some of the principles of Taiji, but my understanding is limited to Yang style.
I suppose i’ll have to be more precise. In wu tai chi you have three basic stances:
seven star: all the weight is in the back leg
neutral: weight is evenly distributed between both legs. use it to transition from seven star to ox plow
ox plow: weight in front leg. super lean
now i would first argue that if you are leaning and can’t root the pull into your foot then you do not have your feet parallel which enables this to be so. as i said we did this in class and it’s true. before you come back with another “you are wrong” maybe you should try it correctly, just because it doesn’t feel right doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Many people say that the postures of internal styles are uncomfortable when they first start.
also i’m just a beginner so could you please elaborate on why having your legs parallel in the bow stance is violating the principles of tai chi? Especially since according to the history of this style, the wu stlye was developped from the yang style, the main reason for the difference in stances being the manchu uniforms. Pictures of wu chien chuan show his feet as parallel and the same for ma yueh liang and no one claims that they could not fight or were not doing tai chi. If it didn’t work then someone would have proved their ineffectiveness by now.
on a side note i’ve seen the videos of the wu fast set and there doesn’t seem to be much leaning there, so maybe it depends on the type of force.
one more thing, if you look at xin yi liu he quan practivioners they definitely lean and i don’t thing anyone can claim that they have no power.
Ok I was a little quick to respond. I was all pleased with my post and you shot it down man. ****.
You seem to know more about this than I do and I’ve done a tiny bit of yang style but I’ve never tried to do push hands in the yang style and i really don;t know much about opening the kua.
however what i do know is that wu style is recognized as an effective martial art and that as long as you have the coccyx tucked and follow the other principles of tai chi then there should be no reason to question it. The lean is not something you do on purpose and i have problems doing it right. Most of the time i end up untucking my butt or my hips are skewed. But if your feet are parallel and you follo tai chi principles when you straighten the back leg, transition through neutral and sink your weight into the front leg, lean just happenes naturally and to me it is does not feel wrong when done properly.
whew,
paul
“I’m always unhappy.”
“Lean”
Paul Eugene, You are right! Some postures require the “lean” to establish a straight line to the ground. others require that the back be vertical. it requires a good teacher to know the difference.
sorry if I made you feel bad - I just type responses in a hurry when I’m at work - I tried to clarify that what works for your system doesn’t work for mine, but that doesn’t make you wrong - it’s only wrong in my system. For instance there is no point in the Yang form where the weight is 50/50 - we do single whip 70/30 but Wu does it 50/50 - my way is incorrect in your style and vice versa.
What I was getting at was your statement:
“as long as your force is directed forward you can be pulled even if your back is perpendicular to the floor”
Which I feel to be incorrect - if I’m correct in my posture then the pull doesn’t move me because it is rooted into my front foot - I’m in control of the energy still. If I lean then that pull takes me off balance - I guess because my CoG is further forwards and beyond the point where I can root the energy.
But as I said - it’s just differences. I don’t understand how it can work for Wu stylists but I’ve only ever taken one Wu class so I’m not an authority. Everything I say is from a Yang perspective.
Wu may have been born from Yang style but if it wasn’t sufficiently different it couldn’t be called another style could it?
WRT leaning - we don’t lean in most postures, but I guess in certain postures you have to adjust in order to keep correct alignment - Snake Creeps Down, Pick Up Needles etc. It does require the best teacher to know when to do it - yourself. An exercise a lot of people use to test it:
go into Pick Up Needles From Sea Bottom (I hope you know what I mean) - then get a partner to try and pull you down by the right arm - if it pulls you off balance then you are leaning, if not then your spine is straight. Then get them to push in the back - again if you can’t root the force and you topple then you are leaning. Do this in all eight directions. This works for any posture and is one of the surest ways to make sure you’re adhering to basic tenets of Taiji (strength in eight directions).
note: the test on Needles is funny - you learn that although you are crouched and driving force down, you need to extend up inside the body to hold the posture correctly. Bit of a revelation to me.
My spine is always straight btw,
I tend to find it difficult to keep my chest undulated and back rounded if I lean…
something funny - just tested some postures to see if I leaned at all in the crouching stances - just in time for a bunch of people to walk past my office door and see me. I have some explaining to do come lunchtime 