This is a question for ALL the internal stylists.
I know that in some TCC styles leaning is discouraged, while others allow a certain amount of leaning.
Now having studied Seiza and it being a part of my style I have a good idea as to why. Explanation is bit more detailed than found in the Tai Chi literature.
Now here start the Questions:
Is leaning allowed in BaGua & Xing Yi??
How much leaning would you say is correct??
How would the rule of “no leaning” lend itself to groundfighting??
One of the reason why I am asking we have some Postures where we lean and 1 where the Upper Body is parrallel to the ground (Punch Fist to the Ground).
Also some of our Movements appear to be bigger more expansive than other TCC styles. We tend to lift Arms a bit higher as well.
However, if you stand straight and have another guy pull on your outstretched arms, and you brace yourself against the pull and lean forward while you do it, there is a certain “breaking point”. If you lean past this breaking point, you lose your balance and are no longer able to resist the pull. You shouldn’t lean ****her than this point.
As to how the “no lean” thing applies to groundfighting, I’m not sure I understand the question.
During a seminar with Yang Zendou, he said that, except for two postures, all postures in the Yang Tai Ji form lean slightly forward from the hips. (the back is still straight mind you, but the upper body is angled very slightly forward). After hearing him say that, I checked all photos I can find of Yang ChengFu and sure enough, he’s slightly leaning forward from the waist. It’s not obvious at first glance because of the sheer girth of the guy, but it’s obvious once you look for it.
(the two postures without the slight forward lean:
Fan through back and Single whip… both of those have the body bolt upright).
Leaning backwards is popular with bad Tai Chi people, but doesn’t help the form or applications at all.
In Xing Yi, leaning backwards and to the sides is considered a bad posture. It brings a loss of balance and rooting. However, leaning to the front is permitted, if your feet are apart by a considerable distance. In this way, your body weight drops to your center, and you can lean your body without losing balance.
The analogy of the string attached to the top of your head is used in the practice of San Ti, too.
I used to practice the long yang form. When I learned the CMC from the first thing that was corrected was the slight lean.
for me do not lean, means do not lean. Of course they way this is achieved should be form an internal perspective that allows for good flow and proper centering. to be streight, just to be streight is just as bad as leaning if it is done from an extrnale prespective, it also tends to promot stiffness and tension.
I have noted that for most people the lean is directly related to the length of the stance, and weather the movement is a result of leg strength or not really being able to sink and flow into the next movement. I haven’t met to many people who can really move with out leaning.
What they mean is that while we maintain straightness it still is very flexible, very soft.
In the example where someone is pulling your arm the body turns along its axis in the direction of the pull. The force of the body is sunk deep into the ground allowing the other pulling the arm to feel, as if they have nothing to pull.
Not having nothing to pull they tend to float, (lose their own center) it is at this point they will have to change but it is already to late.
To use any force to counter act someone pulling the arm I think is a mistake.
also a mistake to pull the finger, kids learn this very young
The Classics of Taiji, and I believe the Classics of Bagua as well, tell us not to lean to the sides and not to incline one way or another. During practice, barring the bowing of the back for power, there should be no lean except where it is unavoidable. As far as usage goes, I guess you can lean if you want to. It’s not necessary for exertion of power, but some applications might call for it. Personally, I practice Punch to the Ground with a vertical back.
Most of the time, Baguazhang practitioners follow the same admonition to avoid leaning. There are, however, the occasional postures where leaning is integral to the technique, usually also accompanied by twisting of the body as well.
we don’t lean in my Yang style - the postures are tested in all 8 directions - i.e. someone pushes you in the small-middle back and also from the rear diagonals. If you’re leaning then you can’t maintain the posture as the force isn’t channeling down into the feet.
I think people often confuse having a “C” curved spine with leaning.
How do you keep your Kua points closed if you’re leaning forwards? Or alternatively - if you are sunk into your posture then your Kua point/s should be closed, so how can you lean forwards at the same time? (I just tried to do it and ended up sticking my butt out - I guess you can fold at the waist but that isn’t really leaning as much as compressing) My understanding is that the spine should be like a vertical axle so that you can rotate freely around it - leaning would make that difficult.
To me it’s like turning on a weighted or unweighted heel - different schools of thought. I’m just curious as to the rationale behind it.
My teacher says to avoid leaning.. except where individual body mechanics force a slight lean. His analysis of this is to reference the spine to an axis about which we turn.. if the axis is leaning or bent turning will be unbalanced, turning will wobble and lose its center. Of course there are many applications and expressions of applications in the form itself that appear to be leaning.. if the practioner is “intending” to express application through the form, it may be appropriate.. Personally, i cannot express the ripple/whipping effect of bringing earth energy up through my bodyand expressing it through my arms/hands without appearing to lean at some point. Though, as some high speed photography reveals, this “whipping ripple” (i think i like that analogy) is like a sine wave, there is equal mass on either side of the centerline of the direction of the ripple (centerline of the body).. the centerline remains perpendicular while the ripple travels along that line..
From a physics perspective, even if the body appears to lean, it may be perfectly centered and perpendicular if a line drawn through the center of mass is perpendicular and intersects the earth in the center 1/3 of a line drawn between the heels. An interesting exercise is to keep the torso perpendicular and in contact with the heavy bag, then by testing various stances and leg/waist movements, see how much you can effect the heavy bag, how far you can displace it. My own experience combines rear-leg power pushing the “whipping ripple” forward with a release of “Chi” from the DanTien (it seems to me that the Chi sort of snowballs the physical expression, like riding the “sine-wave”). But, if i begin leaning, i notice a distinct drop in my ability to move the bag.
Oh, another way to train your spine to be erect is to take three rocks, 1-1/2" in dia., place one on each shoulder and one on your head .. now, see how much of the form you can do and not “lose your rocks”
Just another perspective from the “Far-side”.. be well..
PS. At judges meetings before competition we usually don’t favor leaning unless it appears to be a valid expression of application.
basically the way i see it it is ok to lean as long as you dont break your posturing at the waist in other words your waist must aligned with your hips and kua. so you dont bend but you just lean. also you have to adjust your legs to compensate for this. if you lean really far forwards for example in a high bow and arrow stance i dont think it will do. However at the same time in a really low bow and arrow stance its much more logical to lean.
Nowadays with the diversity of how many internal teachers claim to be kosher its not possible to find right or wrong.
Too early to say what my teacher thinks about leaning in Hsing I, but for Water Boxing, we definitely lean. The final position of most of the short forms is a forward 45 degree angle from heel to head.
The point of the lean is delivering power while moving from the backfoot to 100% on the front foot. (In practice the power goes into the opponant, but because he isn’t there you move onto your forward foot.)
But the word “lean” might convey that somehow there is straining involved. The spine is naturally straight, tailbone somewhat tucked. With 100% of the weight on the front foot, there isn’t any straining, it feels very natural. Like you’re “sitting” on your front leg.
“I checked all photos I can find of Yang ChengFu and sure enough, he’s slightly leaning forward from the waist. It’s not obvious at first glance because of the sheer girth of the guy, but it’s obvious once you look for it.”
The reason Yang Cheng Fu leaned in a bow-posture like that was because he was so fat. I don't think he could've maintained verticality if he tried. (I'm not saying he wasn't good, just that he was obese and that this affected his posture as you can see in the photos)
Leaning is fine as long as you don’t lose your center. If you lean, you must still keep your opponent clinging to (or within) your space, instead of entering his. So, just compliment your lean by sinking into your center and you should be ok me thinks.
I think as in many things when the rule starts to become more inportant then the intent of the idea it becomes a shackle to the mind instead of freedom for movement and sprit.
It’s funny when I help people to find their center they often feel like they’re leaning, when actually they are leaning to start with.
I don’t think Cheng-fu had any problem standing straight up while practicing his form. There are several pictures of him practicing his form in Douglas Wile’s T’ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions where his back is straight up and down, and there are some where he also leans. I think that he chose to lean while doing his form. I think the lean was one of the changes he made to the Yang family form.
I mostly agree with WongSifu. I think it’s ok to lean just as long as the ‘ming men’ isn’t compromised. Also I think leaning is ok only in specific situations…
Leaning when blocking/avoiding an attack is completely acceptable. I think when avoiding sometimes it is necessary to lean, just as long as you have your somehting there for insurance. I wouldn’t rely solely on leaning to avoid an attack. However, if one were to lean on an attack, epsecially leaning in order to reach the target then I’d definitely say that’s a problem. When your force is going away from your body and you are leaning into it, a lot could be done to you to knock you to the ground. Actually I believe it does say this in the Bagua Songs… Not to lean when striking.
