kung fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
21

7*.

I don’t expect a Sifu to be a fitness expert, but he must know what helps with the training and what is detramental to it and accordingly advise his students.

In TJQ I can see why certain exercises would be benefitial only after a certain time in the art, but would be harmful if done too early.

Every style has different requirements and thus what is ok for one style might not be acceptable for style X or Z.

IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.

Cheers.

22

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.

:rolleyes:

23

Fatherdog.

You an Expert on Chen TJQ and what it takes to master that you can show me the rolleye?

You know what our training regime and strength training exercises are?

I doubt it.

24

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Fatherdog.

You an Expert on Chen TJQ and what it takes to master that you can show me the rolleye?

You know what our training regime and strength training exercises are?

I doubt it. [/B]

You may well be an expert on Chen TJQ. Statements like

[b]
IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.

[/b]

demonstrate, however, that you are ignorant regarding how muscle growth actually works. Hence the rolleyes.

Your muscles don’t know the difference between weight training and body weight exercises. All they know is the amount of resistance being placed on them. Saying ‘bodyweight exercises are beneficial, weights are not’ is an ignorant statement. Period.

25

Fatherdog.

Did I say “muscle growth” anywhere??

In my kwoon we can “SEE” and " FEEL" if someone worked out as the “quality” of his movements has changed, and usually he has lost some fluidity and relaxation to his movements.

It also depends on WHICH Bodyweight exercises you do and HOW you do them.

We have our own trainings program & exercises for strength, flexibility and so on.

Maybe try taking some TMA before telling other people what they do or don’t know.

I don’t tell you how to train for wrestling, so don’t tell me how I need to train.

Capiche??

[edit]
IMO, that is one of the major problems why we don’t have good MA anymore, everybody knows best on how to train.

Too many ideas and opinions out there and too little correct quality training in what is needed to master the arts.

IMHO, the time spend in the gym would be better spend training the basics and similar.

People these days are too obsessed with their six-packs and so on.

And yes, I know the argument about techniques not working against a stronger opponent.

Why are they not working, because they were not trained and ingrained properly.
[/edit]

26

LC:

“My Sifu” is the most knowledgible person about martial arts and physical culture that I have found in my area. He regularly will send me to his instructors to find answers to some questions etc. The point of the matter is that I did the research, asked the questions, read the books, looked on the net to find out who, what, when, where, why, how, etc. I did the footwork. I know what to look for. I know when someone is standing in front of me feeding me a line of randomness. Very little of that has anything to do with my boxing coach.

:eek:

27

Yenhoi.

Than I am sure that you can tell me what it takes to become a Master in a MA style.

What differentiated the masters of old from the modern guys that can’t even show a glimmer of what the old guys could do?

What was/is it:
1.) Hours in the kwoon
2.) Sparring
3.) Intent
4.) Training methods
5.) Hours doing forms
[added]
6.) NHB fighting
7.) Competitions
[/added]
8.) your choice

With all the modern training methods, weight training and so on most people can’t even come close to the skill of the masters of old and the few good masters now.

According to you and others here we got better nutrition, training methods, more insight into how the body works, better literature, cross-training, etc and should be better than the guys that lacked those.

Where are the current day Yip Man’s, Bruce Lee’s, Yang Lu Chan’s, etc?

Who in the current generation of thousands & millions of MA will equal them and their skill?

So what are we doing wrong??

I think I know the answer do the above question. Took me a long time to find it, but so far it has been confirmed by my teachers and my research.

Seeya.

28

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Fatherdog.

Did I say “muscle growth” anywhere??

[/b]

I repeat, your body does not know the difference between bodyweight exercises and weight exercise. It’s just resistance… and resistance promotes muscle growth. If you do bodyweight exercises, your muscles are growing… it’s just that past a certain point, they are inefficient for further growth of strength.

So, if CTJ is best served by getting to a certain level of strength, and then never getting any stronger, than certainly bodyweight exercises are serving your goals. I’m more inclined to think that you’re misinformed, however.

29

Fatherdog.

You might be right.

Most TMA, AFAIK, don’t rely on strength vs strength to win, and thus training those aspects CAN be counter-productive.
Especially if the movement is counter to the underlying principles of the style.

All TMA that I am aware of have strength training at some part of their curriculum, some use weights other use weapons.

In my art, for example, we rely on good body mechanics and other attributes to counter, falling back on strength to win and relying on it is a big NO-NO(but often done and sold as skill).

For a beginner it is more important to trai correct mechanics and develop correct attributes till they are 2nd nature than using/training methods that do NOT promote those.

Once the principles, attributes and mechanics are 2nd-nature than we can start strength training which will enhance the existing skills.

Now in CTJ’s case it looks like the preparation work for all 3 styles is the same, and I am sure that his Sifu has VALID reasons for saying what he says.

Like I said we got our own training methods of which you are as yet unaware.

Seeya.

30

Regarding BWE vs weight training, you’re both right to a degree.

When you use weights it is more possible to isolate muscles/muscle groups. This can increase the strength of those muscles more, but might not improve overall bodily functional strength.

BWE, on the other hand, are unlikely to isolate any muscle group and will benefit the core strength of the body as well as the muscles being trained.

i.e. Pushup vs tricep extension.

The tricep extension will target the triceps with low impact on other muscles groups.

The pushup will target the triceps and hit the chest and hit the abs/core in isometric contraction.

For MA, overall functional strength is more suitable, so BWE exercises might seem more beneficial.

However, as the Dog says, you might reach a certain point in strength and then not improve any more. So what’s the answer?

Both!

Do weight training, do lots of bodyweight stuff. Do BWE’s with added weights (backpack full of books, wife on your back, etc.) and do free weights to employ more stabilising muscles in your weights routine.

Then add on the cardio and you’re starting to get your body in shape to be good at your kung fu! :wink:

That’d be my advice.

31

Serpent.

Thanks, for the detailed clarification.

IME, TMA training has both but done at different times in each styles training curriculum.

Also, IMO, starting this type of training too soon(depending on style) CAN be counter-productive and thus the student should listen/look to his Instructor for advise/guidance.

There is no universal method that fits everybody.

Just getting rattled when people give advise, but are not aware of what the specific styles requirements are.

32

Fair comment. However, as far as I’m concerned, the stronger and fitter you are, the better your kung fu. A sifu should be able to teach softness and “internal” to even the biggest and strongest practitioner.

However, a sifu might not necessarily know the best advice about getting fit and strong. :wink:

Listen to your teacher, but know that your teacher may not be perfect.

33

Originally posted by Serpent
Fair comment. However, as far as I’m concerned, the stronger and fitter you are, the better your kung fu. A sifu should be able to teach softness and “internal” to even the biggest and strongest practitioner.

No disagreement there, we got some pretty muscle-bound guys in my class.

It takes more work and dedication for them to get there, though.


However, a sifu might not necessarily know the best advice about getting fit and strong. :wink:

True, he is a MA instructor and not a personal trainer.


Listen to your teacher, but know that your teacher may not be perfect.

Wise words. But he should know better what is needed and required than an outsider of the style.

34

Serpent and others.

Just a quick question.

Should a beginner be more worried about his fitness and strength or building martial skill?

35

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Serpent and others.

Just a quick question.

Should a beginner be more worried about his fitness and strength or building martial skill? [/B]

That’s a loaded question!

He shouldn’t ignore either of them. Initially he should concentrate on learing his martial skills. However, at the same time he should learn about getting fit and strong and start employing those aspects into his training regime.

36

I figured it out, my school is a traditional wu tan kugn fu school, teaches grandmaster lius style and su yu chang and 2 others. I talked to the instructor and he said that the lineage is from china, but than when communists came in gm liu moved to tai wain and formed a wu tan school, than su yu chang and 2 others joined in in make a kung fu school with many styles stuffed in to preserve traditional chinese kung fu.

The kung fu emphasises on using your tendons instead of your muscle, because the tendons is much stronger than the muscle, on top of that it takes hardly any energy to deliver a high impact, also the system teaches to be completely relaxed like your sinking down into your lower part, like your belly button, kinda like praying mantis. the problem with this emphasis is that if I do pushups or anything like that my body will learn to use muscle than tendons, and my tendons will be very weak and it will be hard to relax enough to use the tendons.

Now i’m not totally biased on this either way just a statement

37

Youngmantis.

Those requirements sound very much like Tai Ji Quan, which is what I assumed from your previous post.

In Taiji strength training happens at a later stage to other styles.

Cheers.

38

In our style strength training starts right at the beginning, along with ‘softness’ and sensitivity training.

It’s emphasised as building ‘elastic’ strength though.

39

i wonder if fa_jing knows anything about this … :wink:

40

Than I am sure that you can tell me what it takes to become a Master in a MA style.

Sure. Time and effort. I dont believe in styles. You cant master them. They dont exist. They are labels and words people use on the internet and marketing. Masters dont exist. Skill is only measurable one way.

What differentiated the masters of old from the modern guys that can’t even show a glimmer of what the old guys could do?

I dont know what your talking about. Who are these ‘old masters’ that have all this magical skill? Have you met any of them? I have met skillful people. None of them surprized me. None of them were out of this world. I doubt I will ever meet anyone that just blows my mind with their mystical inner chi circulation skills. You didnt say chi, Im just using an example.

What was/is it:
1.) Hours in the kwoon
2.) Sparring
3.) Intent
4.) Training methods
5.) Hours doing forms
6.) NHB fighting
7.) Competitions
8.) your choice

Training methods and sparring, and competition. All the rest are just repeats. Hour in the kwoon mean nothing if you are doing nothing.

With all the modern training methods, weight training and so on most people can’t even come close to the skill of the masters of old and the few good masters now.

Who the hell are you talking about. Who? Who? Who? How do you compare “modern martial artists” with dead guys? How do you know these dead people you mention were so **** skillful? Where do you come up with this stuff.

According to you and others here we got better nutrition, training methods, more insight into how the body works, better literature, cross-training, etc and should be better than the guys that lacked those.

Who (besides some misguided souls) says that ‘our’ guys today arent better? Again, how to you compare and measure this? You have some chi ruler somewheres?

Where are the current day Yip Man’s, Bruce Lee’s, Yang Lu Chan’s, etc?

Those guys are all dead. I doubt you met or touched hands with any of them. I would count several of the Gracies, a couple tai chi dudes, Master Chai, SevenStar, Ralek, and Myself. How do you decide who is the next Yip Man?

Who in the current generation of thousands & millions of MA will equal them and their skill?

Martial Artist is a catchall randomass term. What does it mean? Most people who call themselves a Martial Artist are full of **** and do it to impress their friends and parents and co-workers. Im not a Martial Artist. I care little for the ‘art and culture and heritage’ or any of the randoms that are out there. The only thing that matters to me is being healthy, making progress, and being able to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Again, how do you judge and compare these people? Why do you throw this ‘martial artist’ label around like it has any weight with the people who really do practice day in and day out to take on other larger, smaller, faster, slower, stronger, weaker persons who want to hurt them?

So what are we doing wrong??

Personally, I spend to much time on the net at work, I drink dark beer, and I have a taste for good tequilla. Other then that, Im on track to achieve my goals, whats your problem bud?

I think I know the answer do the above question. Took me a long time to find it, but so far it has been confirmed by my teachers and my research.

Apparantly you and your hero worship have all the answers. Why dont you share? Some randomness about mountains and paths and this and that to be sure. I dont buy it, and either do the other people that have a clue.

In my art, for example, we rely on good body mechanics and other attributes to counter, falling back on strength to win and relying on it is a big NO-NO

How is this different from any other “art?”

Most TMA, AFAIK, don’t rely on strength vs strength to win, and thus training those aspects CAN be counter-productive.

How on earth can being a stonger person be counter-productive? What the hell is TMA? What makes TMA do different and special from “arts” you dont consider Traditional?

Like I said we got our own training methods of which you are as yet unaware.

If your seriously trying to sell us on this secrecy bs, then I think your hanging out on the wrong website. What training methods? Why are they so good? What makes you so special that you get the goods and the rest of us dont? Something in the water?

There is no universal method that fits everybody.

Yes there is. We all have brains. Everyone of us can figure out what is best for us.

In Taiji strength training happens at a later stage to other styles.

Not true.

Style bs is just that. Stlye bs. Hiding behind labels and other randomness that is just silly talk.

:eek: