Thanks for the help MP, I will defnitely make sure we avoid as many pitfalls as possible. Actually him and I had talked about a few of those already!
A victory against a 6’8" 300lbs experinced fighter is a huge accomplishment. Your skill must be quite good – unless of ocrase you are 7’0" 305lbs. 
For real. You must have had a good weekend after that.
Anyway, I disagree in that I believe one can get “it all” from one source, however, those sources (complete style + real teacher) are very rare.
What do I mean. OK, no offense to Wing CHun, it is not a 100% complete style, because it was never meant to be. It was meant to train soemone quickly in core competencies: trapping, economical hitting, deflecting, ect. However, if you have a good teacher, who’s been around the block, you should be able to go to him and say, “Look, I fought this wrestler and he did this, what can I do?” If he’s a real teacher, who fought the foughts he should have fought before becoming a sifu, he should have the answer. Many don’t. Many train for a while, get the forms, do some sparring with classmates and then want to teach. You’ll never get it all from these types.
Now, I beleive a style like Hung Gar has a lot in it. You can learn a lot from them. Most any traditional style. Now by traditional I do mean silk uniform and forms. I mean a style based off of its roots, which, at the time of its develoment was focused on survival. You should be able to handle a confrontation if you have a good teacher.
I think its better to spend 2 years floating around looking for the real deal instead of training for 5 with a so so guy … or gal. Not only should your sifu be able to teach you hand to hand, but weapons as well. That’s not asking for a lot if wanting to learn a martial art – its asking for what is expected. Just so very few view it this way from the start, so they pursue an unrealistic ideal, and when they are “complete” in their minds, what do they have? Many have very little.
Once you go out and start fighting with other’s you’ll here about this guy and that guy. Fight them. See how you match up. Maybe they are just better, more experienced. Maybe there technique is just better. If that is the case, then comes the hard question: Do you stick with what you have because you’re already invested, or do you say, that is simply a better way?
I know that is not popular, but I am 100% convinced that there are better ways then others of handling a situation. Its not politically correct to say, but it is true.
Maybe you are happy where you are. Great. Maybe not, but there isn’t much else around. That’s an unfortunate situation. But I think it unrealistic to start off by assuming all things are equal when they are not. This isn’t the Cosby Show.
Good question Ap. After thinking about it some, I have come to one conclusion. In general if I came across a situation and absolutely could not find an answer in the Wing Chun I have been taught or extrapolated from the forms, then I would have to work within the WC principles to come to a conclusion of my own. You might think I am absolutely hell bent on staying with WC, and pretty much, you would be right! 
I am content enough with WC to feel that it can help me to get out of any situation on the street I run into. If I were competition fighting, that may be different, I may have to go and mix some other stuff in as well. In my heart I believe WC, as well as most other styles to have what a martial artist will need. Will I study other arts? Probably, I am interested in mantis and eagle claw. Maybe an internal style, but I will study none of these as a stop gap, my fighting art will always be wing chun.
Call me crazy but I know I cant win every situation and I refuse to make the same mistake I believe Bruce Lee made. If loose a fight it is probably more my fault then the fault of my style.
How was Bruce Lees personal decision a mistake???
red 5, you bring up a great point. Your Wing Chun should be more than enough to handle a street confrontation. Train hard and you should be OK. Also, you’re right, the principles are there, the answers are there too. Find a friend and exam the situatin, any situation, and study it realisticly and with an open mind. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
EF
Right on brother, I am not lookin to compete in the ring, just take care of myself and my loved ones in the jungle that is civilization!
Black Jack, it is of my opinion, that Mr Lee lost his fight to Wong Jack Man, hence the sudden shift in his martial beliefs. The problem was that he was not up to par in his martial arts training to make that decision. He was obviously a good fighter, and he had a lot of talent, but his fight with WJM showed he was unable to apply his martial skills effectively against someone of greater skill, his natural talent could not make up for it. It is my view that he chose to tread his own path before having all the ‘facts’.
EF
You have brought up a good point as well, for some of us, our opinion of what is good or bad is directly related to our goals.
For instance I believe that to compete effectively in sport fighting, especially open tourneys, you need to cross train and mix your styles. But for someone like me, I enjoy a good sparring match, and I push myself beyond what your average martial artist does in my art, but I do not push as hard as competitors who regularly fight for a living. I am confident in my ability to take most of the people I may end up in a confrontation with, the rest I will allow my feet to take care of!
E-fist–it was quite the weekend actually. And I’m not bad. If we had been limited to standing, I probably would have gotten murdered though. As for stats, I’m 6’0, 185.
red5angel,
while i admire your devotion, i do think you run the risk of tunnel vision. this isn’t a foregone conclusion, mind you. but if someone believes something strongly enough, there’s always the chance that they’ll unconsciously do things to preserve that belief. (come to think of it, i think that’s actually the psychological term. belief preservation.) in other words, people will tend to dismiss results unfavourable to their belief or avoid circumstances that challenge it.
sorry. i don’t mean to get overly analytical about this. and i’m not really espousing one method over another. it’s more that i’m espousing a mindful approach to this stuff. does that make sense?
stuart b.
Good. Glad to see people banging around out there.
Red, as for me, I have two personal goals right now. One, finish this book and get it published.
Two, keep training and compete, show that one can go up against ANYONE without mixing. I have studied a few styles in the past, but that was just background. The E-chuan I am learning now I believe is more than enough to handle anyone anywhere under any situation. This is my honest opinion. It has taken me 27 years but I have found a true master. Never though this caliber existed, someone soooo much ahead of everything I have ever seen. I’m thinking two more years training with this man and I can fight anyone. I’ll be with him until I die, I want to learn the sword which he is known for as well as the pole which he is also known for (I could post a good article by Robert Chu on this).
It can be done. A good style was inveneted for Combat. My master inherited the Imperial Palace Ba GUa – the true Ba Gua to guard the emperor. Would the kind, emperor, president, have some phony ballony, useless technology protect his life – ina time without guns? No way. I agree. Most “traditional” martial arts $uck, but that is because they are not traditional. They have the uniforms, the speach, the fale wushu weapons, but nothing traditional in the sense they can’t use it – unless sparring among themsleves and then it become kick boxing.
But there are some good people out there working, under the rador. My goal is to bring it out. I wan to. I’m willing. Now its just a matter if I can become good enough with it. I’m leanring. We’ll see how it goes I guess. I have to try, or I’ll regret it.
Best to everyone.
Peace
Ray
Ap, thanks for the concern but honestly I dont see it as tunnel vision. I see what your point is. This is the way I look at it. When I really begin to spar, or if I get into a confrontation, and something goes wrong, my first assumption is, “I did it wrong” probably about 90% of the time this is true. If this is not, my second step would be to study my Wing Chun to see if there is an answer. My forms, this forum, all places to help me find those answers. If an answer isnt available, I see if I can create an answer with the principles of wing chun in mind. If this fails, then I have one of two courses, I can become concerned that the same situation will come up again, and have to find another answer for it, or I can not worry about it, some things you just cannot control no matter how good you are.
I have a love affair with wing chun that is pretty strong but not foolishly so, every art has its holes, and there isnt an art out there that has the answers.
I gues sI just hold the belief that to study a traditional art is to have faith in its design and its growth. Wing chun is “incomplete” oin only one way that I can see it, the same way that all arts are incomplete and will always grow. Too many people are quick to add things without thinking about what they are doing first. Everything that I add to my WC will be molded to fit its theories and its practices. I believe that it can be done. To master Wing Chun, not for money, or status, or the glory that goes with being called master, but to fully understand it as well as any human being can, is what I want.
I wont ever say that mma is a bad way to go, or an ineffectual way, its just not my way, thats all.
red5angel,
that sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to me. and the more we talk, the more similar our views sound. you say you’ll synthesize solutions based on the principles of wing chun. and that’s precisely what many MMA would say. me? i’m not MMA in the competitive sense. but when i look for a new idea, i filter it through the principles of eskrima. i’m not looking to shoehorn grappling into eskrima terms, mind you. but it’s only natural that a person sees new things in terms of known things. and to decide to mindfully do that, to make sure that new information gels with what you know, is a smart way to go.
likewise, i think it’s smart, when faced with a failing of some sort, not to immediately go off and look for a new solution, but to analyze the existing one. i wholeheartedly believe that progress is made this way.
in short, some of what i said was a caution more than a suspicion. and not specifically directed at you either. just at the idea as a whole. personally, i think you’ve got a good take on the whole thing. as we’ve said throughout, it’s not precisely my take, but it’s a good one all the same.
regards,
stuart b.
What is it that you study Apoweyn? Escrima?
Some of the mixed ma guys here locally just sort of practice a hodge podge, a little wrestling here, a little karate there. There are supposed to be a few good schools here in the minneapolis area but in general I have been unimpressed with the mma showing locally. Thats not a judgement on mma by any means, our local WC isnt all that good either, I just got lucky finding the guys I did!
I think all martial arts must grow. For instance WC probably has a lot of difference in its modern form then it did a century ago, or near its beginnings, but through testing and refinement it has evolved. As an effective martial art astyle I am sold. Now my goal should be the learning, the growing and the evolution of the art, some of it for myself personally, but we all wish to make a lasting and useful impact.
Ultimately, I get asked a lot about what a person should get into for martial arts. I always tel them that they should first decide what their goal is, fitness? self defense? competition? Then do some research, first on styles that would most suit you, go to some schools, feel them out, do some looking into the instructors past. Eventually something will speak to you.
red5angel,
yeah, that’s right, in my opinion. something speaks to you. and if you’re smart, you listen. good call.
what speaks to a person isn’t always the same either. that’s what makes this stuff endlessly interesting to me. you know what i mean?
yep, i consider eskrima my ‘base’ style, in that the principles of it make sense to me. it’s what i use as my ‘anchor’ for absorbing ideas. i studied taekwondo before that and kickboxing/JKD afterward. obviously, i’m a product of all of those things. but eskrima has had the strongest influence. i don’t generally think of myself as an eskrimador anymore, though. not purely. but the principles found in eskrima constitute my frame of reference. they provide my overall strategy, to use the terminology that merryprankster suggested.
stuart b.
can you tell me a little about eskrima? What IS the overall strategy?
hmm… eskrima is a somewhat generic term, in the same way that ‘gung fu’ or ‘karate’ are generic terms. it refers to filipino martial arts (often called ‘kali’ and ‘arnis de mano’ as well). so the overall strategy rather depends on the specific style of eskrima.
largo mano (long hand), for example, is a long-range style. so its tactics are somewhat different from a style like serrada, which is a close-range style. but i’ll try to hit some of the common themes.
filipino martial arts (FMA) generally teach weapons first and empty hand later. single stick, double stick, dagger, stick and dagger, and empty hand (in some variation of that order). some styles emphasize stick over blade (swords). others favour the blade. some focus on knifefighting. etc. but in general, FMA teach these areas.
FMA tends to use a couple of consistent teaching concepts as well. the first is the idea of angles. usually, a system teaches 12 angles, but i’ve heard of numbering systems of 5 and 9 as well. the angles refer to the angle in which any attack is delivered. so in FMA theory, there isn’t much difference between a forehand strike with a stick or machete and a ridgehand strike from karate. the angle of delivery is the same, meaning that certain principles of defense are also the same. same with, say, a backhand strike and a backfist or hook kick. obviously, some variables are affected by the particular weapon (e.g., blade vs. blunt will affect what blocks are viable). but in general terms, much of it comes down to the angle.
the second is FMA’s footwork. i hate reading that such-and-such has unique footwork or mystylechuan is very powerful, etc. that sort of thing comes down to the individual practitioner, in my opinion. that said, FMA was where i first became aware of footwork as a real tool. now, i’m convinced that it’s one of the most fundamental skills you can have. good footwork can almost render other skills obsolete (if i’m in the right place at the right time, my block doesn’t need to be stellar because i’ve put myself in a place where the attack was never meant to find me).
FMA footwork usually follows an X or triangle pattern. (the triangle is a subset of the X if you look closely. an X is no more than several triangles set point to point.) that pattern allows you to move into an angle, snuffing it before it builds momentum, or move out of an angle, so the force dissipates before reaching you. we refer to this as ‘zoning.’ put your body in a ‘zone’ where the attack can do minimal effect.
another principle is attacking the weapon or ‘defanging the snake’, so that when an attack is blocked, an attempt is made to damage the attacking limb (e.g., striking the knuckles with our stick, punching the bicep or tricep to create a charlie horse, etc.).
FMA holds that many of the principles of one weapon (incl. empty hand) translates to other weapons. some practitioners hold to that idea more than others. personally, i buy it to a degree. as i’ve said, there are obvious differences between blunt and bladed, armed and unarmed, etc. but there are similarities as well. if i’m fighting with a knife, i might try to cut the attacker’s bicep. without a knife, i might punch it. physiologically, the effect is different. but both serve to lessen the effectiveness of that attacker’s weapon. see what i mean?
that’s a very basic overview, anyway.
stuart b.
How old are the eskrima styles, how and where did they originate?
Sounds kinda cool to me. So Arnis is a form of Eskrima? We have a former JKD guy who also studied Arnis, I should talk to him more about it.
red5angel,
good questions. hard to say really. i doubt there’s really a ‘start’ date for these things. there’s a need to fight. then there’s a need to teach others to fight. and gradually that process becomes codified.
but to put it in some sort of context, lapulapu is considered a hero in filipino culture, reknowned for his fighting prowess. he was responsible for the death of ferdinand magellan, as the story goes. either it was an epic and cinematic sword duel on the beach or his tribe rather unceremoniously speared magellan’s boys to death as they waded ashore, depending on who you ask.
that’s a sort of historical marker for eskrima. but really, all it shows decisively is that weapons were being used. presumably in a systematic manner. rather depends on how you define martial art, i suppose.
here’s a very brief history of FMA from the WEKAF website (world eskrima kali arnis federation): href="http://www.wekaf.com/fma/history.htm
arnis and eskrima are words that describe the same thing, yes. different areas in the philippines tend to favour different terms. ‘arnis de mano’ (spanish for ‘harness [armour] of the hand’) and eskrima (spanish for ‘skirmish’, the term spanish uses for fencing) both reflect the influence of the spanish occupation on the filipino arts. and it’s true, in my opinion, that some fencing theory is still obvious in FMA. those terms tend to be used in the northern and central parts of the islands. kali tends to be used more in the south, if i’m not mistaken. reflects more of the muslim (moro) influence, i believe. they tend to emphasize the blade a little more too, i’m told.
chris mckinley, knifefighter, and blackjack all come from strong FMA backgrounds themselves, so i’m sure they’ll be able to provide information as well.
other terms that refer to various aspects of FMA include ‘pangolisi’ (stickfighting), ‘pangamot’ (hand2hand), 'pananjakman or sikaran (kicking), ‘panantukan’ (boxing), ‘dumog’ (grappling), etc.
how did they originate? mostly tribal wars in the philippines. during the spanish occupation, much of it was practiced in secret (at night, hidden in dances, etc.) weapons were confiscated, so sticks were used rather than swords, etc. knives were carried for work and became very viable methods of defense. that sort of thing.
JKD practitioners very often have an FMA connection because dan inosanto (bruce lee’s best friend and ‘heir’ to JKD) was one of the leading voices in FMA in the united states. in fact, he’s the reason i chose FMA myself. in my starry-eyed fascination with bruce, i came across guro inosanto. and the rest is personal history. anyway, FMA has heavily influenced certain branches of JKD ever since. lee expressed to inosanto, as the story goes, that he didn’t want JKD schools, per say. so inosanto and richard bustillo founded a school of FMA that also served to preserve JKD. the two were pretty intrinsically linked for a while. at least, inosanto’s branch of JKD (often referred to as JKD concepts) was.
stuart b.
For blade work its harder to find anything close.
You should picture the systems of the Philippines as you would those of the systems of China, there are hundreds of different styles, personal methodologies, lineages.
Kali being the older term, the newer words being arnis and eskrima-the term eskrima being derived from the Spanish word “esgrimas”-which means fencing, the terms change from different districts, among the tagalogs it is known as Pananadata.
The systems are centuries old, full of fighting lore, the Moro-Moro warriors in WWII were fierce, the methods are practical, simple and very effective to use and retain, its even traceable when you go back to Lapulapu and his historic battle with Ferdinand Magellan in 1552 on Mctan Island.
Some of the many different systems include, Balinawak, Pananadata, Serrada, Sayoc Kali, Pekiti-Tirisa, Doce Pares, Inayan, Moro-Moro, Willow System/Largo Mano, Modern Arnis, Illustrismo, Black-Eagle Kali, Lameco, Kali-Silat, Kuntaw, Panatuken, Dumog, Panajackman, Kino Mutai, and so on and so on.
Some work more blade than stick, some are just hand to hand, some are more duelling based, others close quater, the family system of Sayoc Kali is ALL blades, there students carry numerous knifes on them at all times, I think like up to 12 in a belt, HARD CORE blade system, I believe there system even influenced Pekiti-Tirisa.
Others like Dumog are FMA grappling methods, Panajackman/Sikiran are low-line kicking methods, Panatuken is a fistic/boxing system based on movements of the blade, Kino Mutai is biting, eye gouging, pinching when on the ground, Balinawak works with longer bastons, there is also of course machette, balisong, yo-yo, and other weapon work in there as well, depending on the teacher/system.
They are complete fighting systems onto themselves but the excel in weapon work, each one having its own flavor, hope that helped.
for the record, most of my experience is with the doce pares style, though my current teacher is from dan inosanto’s lineage.
stuart b.