Awesome! When is the fight? I’m currently training for the thai boxing nationals.
I’m not sure, I forgot to ask for some reason, I’ll ask him again Monday and get back with on that.
Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn’t introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.
Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,
even some traditionals, when they teach you how to FIGHT they teach you San Shou.
Seven Stars- and yeah, Sparring was around even before Shaolin kung fu started it goes back to hundresd of years B.C. simply it wasn’t formalized into something called san shou, that happened in the 20th century. But still even to that day saprring was held with rules and as a sports.
jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned.
They didn’t spar because sparring was a sport even if it cuold be used for real fighting. Martial arts were invented for the exponents to have some technicals advantages in a fight , after years and years of trial and error. Although one could fight as in sparring, that was not the idea of the martial arts, because if one fights as in sparring one does not have any technical advantages in a fight, it comes down to who is more condition, and if both are equally condition who is smarter.
Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,
San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.
I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.
You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.
If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight.
Originally posted by Sim Koning
[B]
San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.
I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.
You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.
If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight. [/B]
I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight. Thats the next step in gungfu practice after learning the combat application, actually practicing it. First you must become familiar with the form and practice it fluidly, then separete de form into Attack-defense patterns, then after practicing thewm learning the combat application , and after that practicing with a parter the combat application , and then sparring.
Oh and kung Fu doesn’t nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.
I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight.
Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say
Oh and kung Fu doesn’t nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.
Depends on the style, obviously Wing Chun is nothing like kickboxing, but styles like Choy Li Fut and Jow Gar (my style) are hard to distinguish from kickboxing at times if the guy isn’t wearing a Chinese outfit.
BTW, as everyone adds San Shou as an example that it works well in MMA, I see ads for San Shou seminars on MMA sites.
The MMA people see the value.
The boneheads dont know what they are talking about and know nothing about San Shou.
It’s pretty simple here folks:
You all follow a set of rules in the training hall too.
So this rules/no rules, training for the street stuff is BS.
EVERYBODY has a set of rules, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
As far as clawing and small joint manipulation, that can be done without causing serious injury, which leads me to wonder why its not allowed in the UFC, are they worried the crowd will construe it as cheating?
UFC has those rules for acouple reasons, including legal concerns, and to keep a fight entertaining. But the other organizations do not.
UFC is not the end all for NHB fighting look at the others to find more open rules.
“sparring wasn’t introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.”
Actually… from what I understand shuai chiao practitioners have been free wrestling since shuai chiao was shuai chiao.
Good luck to those of you competing in full contact fighting venues.
For those of you point sparring - go fight.
SevenStar
First of all, UFC is not REAL fighting, its more of a sport. All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition.
If a person can’t use the principles of their art without using “lethal” techniques, I question their training. A grappler can take you down, mount you and eye gouge you, or fish hook you from a rear mount, etc. but can also operate outside of that environment.
the majority of tma techniques are NOT limited, only a small handfull of them.
Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn’t bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person.
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any MA in a fight wants to take you out ASAP
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most martial arts were NOT designed for use in wars and battles. they were village styles, family styles, etc. used for protection.
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don’t teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.
strikes like the phoenix eye are not prohibited in MMA and you can do them with mma gloves on. the gloves allow for hand dexterity, and you can grab, lock, phoenix eye, etc.
I’m not saying that MMA don’t work on the street(because they also really work on the streets) but only resalting that TMA fair better on the streets than in a ring or a competition.
nonsense.
Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.
The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren’t lethal techniques but alot of them that aren’t lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.
Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
- a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons’ ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose - a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs. - a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
- An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
- A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the… the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward “push” with your palms to his hips. - hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
- A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
- an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
- a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
- a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
- a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting. - A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
- counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.
Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.
2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.
3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don’t teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.
Just re read this without paying attention to what I said about the hand forms in the gloves.
4th point
You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think…
Re: SevenStar
Originally posted by Shao Lin Long
Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.
no prob… I actually forgot about this thread, which is what took me so long to reply.
The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren’t lethal techniques but alot of them that aren’t lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.
Actually, elbows to the ribs are allowed. so are joint breaks - after all, a submission is a choke, joint lock, etc. if they don’t tap before the joint is broken, that is their fault. Pride has very few restrictions. They are listed below:
Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.
[b]Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
- a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons’ ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose - a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs. - a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
- An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
- A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the… the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward “push” with your palms to his hips. - hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
- A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
- an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
- a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
- a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
- a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting. - A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
- counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.
Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.[/b]
out of all of the stuff you listed, ONLY TWO of them aren’t allowed in pride.
2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.
it’s still a family style, not a battlefield oriented style, so that’s irrelevant. Battlefield styles were generally weapons oriented, for obvious reasons. Okinawan karate was a “peasant style” they were mainly farmers and fisherman, and thus used farm tools as weapons. Awesome stuff, but not a battlefield art.
3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don’t teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops
If you think sport fighting teaches this, you should actually go check out a school…
they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down
that’s really no different than what we do.
so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.
compete in MMA where open fingered gloves are used. you will then be able to do everything you mentioned above, as it is all legal.
[b]4th point
You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think… [/B]
How is it better suited for the street? What special training is done that makes it more effective for the street than a ring?
This is stupid
I didn’t even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.
First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact “real.”
Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.
Comments on techniques
As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).
Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.
Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.
Summary
Most fights have more to do with ego than with self preservation. Understanding this we can establish that in most fights the participants lack the mindset to actively persue maiming or killing their opponent. It is a trait of being civilized. In the UFC it is possible for someone to be killed, It is also plausible that it may be a combatants mindset to do so (no repercussions, sh!t happens at fighting events) . That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn’t work why would they be forbidden.
Re: This is stupid
Originally posted by reemul
[B]I didn’t even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.
First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact “real.” [/b]
The fact that you felt the need to state that says that you need to reat the thread before responding.
Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.
that’s incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.
As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).
Bingo - PROVIDING YOU HIT YOUR TARGET. Since you haven’t read the thread, and since you haven’t been around in a while, you probably missed it. The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn’t an easy target. Same for the eyes.
Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.
I don’t disagree with that.
Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.
see your above statement about hitting the target.
That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn’t work why would they be forbidden.
Once again, the argument isn’t that they don’t work. sure getting hit in the throat hurts. so does getting an eye poked out. but how likely is it? since it can possibly happen, they rule against it. if I attempt 10 eye gouges and one of them is successful, you may lose an eye. they are cutting off that possibility by not letting you attempt it.
The argument
UFC related martial arts are being sold as being more realistic and effective than the traditional arts such as karate and kung fu. Many people are starting to look at traditional styles as being antiquated and as something that does not work in real life. The fact that very few if any kung fu stylists compete in the UFC does not help the situation. Before I continue, let’s look at the rules.
The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn’t an easy target. Same for the eyes.
What is so improbable about these techniques? If your a good fighter, just as in boxing, you are able to develop strategies to set your opponent up. It still just comes down to who is better, not the probability of which techniques will land.
Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.
that’s incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.
You missed the point, given they train equally as hard each has an advantage over the other in there own environement.
Re: This is stupid
Originally posted by reemul
[B]
As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. [/B]
So, just how many people have you blinded or killed so far?
Don’t be stupid
Maybe I should ask you, how many people capable and willing to blind maim or kill you have you fought.
Re: Don’t be stupid
Originally posted by reemul
Maybe I should ask you, …
Maybe you should answer my question.
I would answer…
…but its a pointless question and either way doesn’t really lend any usefulness to the debate.
Your logic is akin to the belief that a knife cant cut you although many people have been cut by knives and it is a fact that knives can cut you.
Your disbelief in the usefulness of techniques is based on your apparent limited exposure (not an insult). No one in the forums is an expert on all the styles of MA and their effectivness, we can only comment on what we know in relation to what we observe and discuss.
I know that a knife will cut you.
Re: I would answer…
Originally posted by reemul
[B]…but its a pointless question
[/B]
So, the answer you are avoiding is “zero”. Thank you.