[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1177934]Interesting but very misleading IMHO.
Basically you are saying there are 2 ‘kicks’ that are Wan and Jic(Jeet), which I presume are the methods of revolving and straight which in turn are called (technically) Huen and Pak.
This is good solid information, but this is not the specific legwork I am talking of but more a breakdown of basic concepts for legwork motions… which I think is more connected to the original clip posted by John than what I am talking about too?[/QUOTE]
Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the “correct” use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I’ll bow out (as I have no interest), but FWIW I’m with Matt (not surprising given the closeness of the lineages) I’m familiar with huen ma, biu ma etc but wouldn’t class them as kicks. I have no idea what a dung toi is. Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), chut sun gerk (cross stamp kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1177936]Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the “correct” use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I’ll bow out (as I have no interest)[/QUOTE]
I will try my best not to go there lol!! I can’t anywayz in so much detail so let’s look at the basics more closely…
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1177936]Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.[/QUOTE]
Now these are exactly what I was talking about with regards to technical names for the kicks in action, and if you double them up on both sides you have 8 ‘kicks’. But where I have a little issue is when the ‘seed terms’ are used (Bong, Tan) and here is why:
The seeds are crucial in understanding flow and intent of a movement, both in the hands and feet for sure, but they are not the actual term for the action itself (more the method of movement) whereas Pak, Tek, Wang and Jik are the technical terms for the actions. This is easier to understand (IMHO) if you can distinguish between a Bong Jik Gerk and a Tan Jik gert… if this makes sense?
Taking this into consideration your 4 methods can be done with 2 seed intentions, therefore creating 8 possibilitie with each leg, resulting in 16 kicking methods. Now THIS is more what I am talking about actually and if you look into older, more traditional terms for legwork you will see things like Johns ‘Pheasant Kick’ etc which are all connected IMHO.
Not too complicated, nor lingual, but something that helps explore the sheer amount of stuff that was scaled down and refined by Ip Man in his later teachings. Just my interpretation but one that many before me have seen too.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1177936]Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the “correct” use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I’ll bow out (as I have no interest), but FWIW I’m with Matt (not surprising given the closeness of the lineages) I’m familiar with huen ma, biu ma etc but wouldn’t class them as kicks. I have no idea what a dung toi is. Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), chut sun gerk (cross stamp kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.[/QUOTE]
I’ve heard tek gerk used to describe dung toi (lifting/ascending leg) so I believe that they are the same thing. I think different lines simply use slightly different terminology.
I think it is well to remember that the ‘eight kicks’ of Wing Chun are in a sense connected to the ‘eight chopping blades’, therefore connected to pairing the hands with the legs.
Muddled. I don’t think so.. Perhaps in your system.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1177933]Okay it’s cool that you are ‘fully aware’ of uncles teachings, although I have no ideas really what that means lol!
As for his human energy stuffs, his eldest student, Juerg Ziegler has just released a book on the matter but I can not really discuss as I know nothing of his practises, only what I see and read.
My Sigung had a wide ranging curriculum of Wing Chun, which included Heigung sets and understanding linked to his TCM practise (he was a qualified herbalist and TCM practitioner) but I wouldn’t say this is the same as uncle Gohs methods as he has grown over the years through his own self study and other learning.[/QUOTE]
When I say I’m fully aware I mean just that, nothing bad if that is what you’re thinking. I have met with him on several occasions and spoke with him in detail about his curriculum and wc in general. My sifu has also helped him with hosting one of hid human energy seminars in NJ. Austin is a class act and very passionate about his work.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1177948]When I say I’m fully aware I mean just that, nothing bad if that is what you’re thinking.[/QUOTE]
Well I never know when it comes to this forum who is taking the pi$$ and who is genuine lol! But thanks for the reply and interest.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1177948]I have met with him on several occasions and spoke with him in detail about his curriculum and wc in general. My sifu has also helped him with hosting one of hid human energy seminars in NJ. Austin is a class act and very passionate about his work.[/QUOTE]
That he is. He is one of the eldest practitioners of Wing Chun still teaching in the UK and I tilt my hat to him.
BUT I am not his student, and my Sifu did not teach the same methods or curriculum as he does so this is why I restrain from commenting too much on what he does, especially regarding his energy stuff. No bad feelings either because I have worked with him on a few events and even took a seminar alongside him once at his request!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1177947]No Joy. I am far from muddled. We simply have quite a varied way of interpreting what Ip Man accomplished, that’s all.[/QUOTE]
Obviously Spencer. Why not describe what you see is the relationship between kicks and bat jam do
involving 8 is?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1177951]Well I never know when it comes to this forum who is taking the pi$$ and who is genuine lol! But thanks for the reply and interest.
[/QUOTE]
I understand.
That he is. He is one of the eldest practitioners of Wing Chun still teaching in the UK and I tilt my hat to him.
BUT I am not his student, and my Sifu did not teach the same methods or curriculum as he does so this is why I restrain from commenting too much on what he does, especially regarding his energy stuff. No bad feelings either because I have worked with him on a few events and even took a seminar alongside him once at his request!
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1177936]
I have no idea what a dung toi is .[/QUOTE]
It is very similar to the front kick. Instead of using the quads to help provide the ‘snap’ to the kick, dung toi just relies on raising the leg, again with the foot turned slightly out and a bend at the knee. Basically, it is just a lifting or raising kick that works a bit like the pike or spear driven into the ground against a charging horse.
[QUOTE=Paddington;1178003]It is very similar to the front kick. Instead of using the quads to help provide the ‘snap’ to the kick, dung toi just relies on raising the leg, again with the foot turned slightly out and a bend at the knee. Basically, it is just a lifting or raising kick that works a bit like the pike or spear driven into the ground against a charging horse.[/QUOTE]
Cool, what we refer to as Tek gerk.
I only ever had 5 kicks, either side. One being a side kick and one being a kick to the rear. All are heel kicks, and are used at specific targets. I never miss either because I only kick when I know I won’t miss. I can kick you into next week too, and it is fast. But then I practiced these kicks a great deal as a younger man, especially when I was learning them. Kicking is something best left alone unless you know what you are doing. It can get you taken down. I never kick higher than my own hip bone. Most men are taller than I am, so I don’t kick that high on them. Knee, back of knee for a take down, groin, not the testicles, but the groin. The line from pelvic bridge to the hip bone. Lots of vains and nerves. And of course the pelvic bridge itself. A solid kick to the hip or pelvic bridge can break it in half. The Pelvic cage is held together in the center by cartlege, and a solid kick can crack it like an egg.
A kick can be used to draw his defense down so that you can get in on him with the hands, and it really comes in handy for when you are dealing with multiple antagonists. If they can’t get close to you they can’t hit you. And it might even entice them to kick back, which in most cases is your best opertunity to take him down. Your feet are your most powerful weapons, and you should learn how to use them without compromising youself.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1178054]I only ever had 5 kicks, either side. One being a side kick and one being a kick to the rear. All are heel kicks, and are used at specific targets. I never miss either because I only kick when I know I won’t miss. I can kick you into next week too, and it is fast. But then I practiced these kicks a great deal as a younger man, especially when I was learning them. Kicking is something best left alone unless you know what you are doing. It can get you taken down. I never kick higher than my own hip bone. Most men are taller than I am, so I don’t kick that high on them. Knee, back of knee for a take down, groin, not the testicles, but the groin. The line from pelvic bridge to the hip bone. Lots of vains and nerves. And of course the pelvic bridge itself. A solid kick to the hip or pelvic bridge can break it in half. The Pelvic cage is held together in the center by cartlege, and a solid kick can crack it like an egg.
A kick can be used to draw his defense down so that you can get in on him with the hands, and it really comes in handy for when you are dealing with multiple antagonists. If they can’t get close to you they can’t hit you. And it might even entice them to kick back, which in most cases is your best opertunity to take him down. Your feet are your most powerful weapons, and you should learn how to use them without compromising youself.[/QUOTE]
in all of my years watching TKD, full contact karate, kickboxing, Muay thai, MMA and working in bars and clubs, watching rugby etc I can safely say that the only pelvic breaks I’ve ever seen have been in rock climbing accidents and car accidents.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1178061]in all of my years watching TKD, full contact karate, kickboxing, Muay thai, MMA and working in bars and clubs, watching rugby etc I can safely say that the only pelvic breaks I’ve ever seen have been in rock climbing accidents and car accidents.[/QUOTE]
It is something that has to be targeted. In any of the full contact bouts you mentioned, you would be immediately disqualified if you tried that. And in most athletic sports you would not see that happen because there would be absolutely no reason to do it. Climbing and car accidents do account for a lot of these type of injury, but if you are aware of how a body’s frame is put together you can target certain places where shock or impact can seperate certain parts of the structure. A mastery of Jiujitsu will give you all that.
