I had not intended to respond as per my earlier post but there is no email for Ford Perfect.
Ford,
I would like someclarification. Please provide the titles or the writtings you are referring to. I would be interested in researching them deeper since everything I have seen would indicate a different view.
BTW, have you ever studied Judo or is this all secondhand information? Not an attack just curiousity.
Peace,
Dave
Please feel free to email me off list as I do not want to continue this debate for reasons already posted, at least not here.
ReverendTim, I hope things are progressing well for you.
Hey,
I don’t know what happened but out of curiousity I checked my own profile and nothing is there. Must have been due to the server problems. I will rectify this shortly. In the meantime anyone wishing to email me can reach me at: dmcknight@home.com or Sihing73@Juno.com
Sihing-- your basically right… but Judo has become more sport (randori) focused than Kano originally intended. My understanding is that Kano intended for Judoka to mutually benefit from the practice of Judo for building health and character–similar intent as the practice of Aikido, but not as “spiritual.”
GinSueDog,
It sounds like your Judo history is from a BJJ source. I don’t recall of ever hearing of Maeda as being a Kodokan Judo student–in fact I remember that he possibly studied a contempory (of Judo) jujutsu style that emphasized groundwork hence BJJ.
Judo is great.
If anyone wants references for the above info, let me know–it’ll take a few days.
Wierd. E-mail address should’ve been there. Let me know if you don’t get me my mail.
Longquan,
The Brazil Judo Federation traces it’s lineage back to Maeda as well. The Gracie’s just modified Kodokan ne waza. I’m not taking anything away from the Gracie’s because they obviously did an incredible job with their modifications. Judo wasn’t always so lopsided in it’s emphasis of standing techniques vs. ground techniques.
I didn’t get to work out, because the guy who runs the club’s website had a different opinion on what constituted appropriate trial-lesson clothing than the instructor, but I watched, and really liked what I saw. They spent lots of time on groundwork, but plenty of time on throws and ‘fit-ins.’
Next week, I’ll have me a gi and start getting tossed around. The instructor was very psyched about seeing how all the wing chun chi sao affected my ability to avoid getting grabbed.
I heard that one of wing chun’s weak points is that it particularly vulnerable to the throwing arts, such as judo. I guess cuz you’re working in the mid/close range alot. Anyone heard or seen this to be true?
Not sure that I would agree that Wing Chu has a weakness as regards throwing arts. If any the weakness would perhaps be fighting once on the ground itself. Although, there are methods to deal with this situation as well.
Judo is a wonderful art and teaches one many things about balance. In order to perform a throw one must first disrupt the other persons balance. This can lead to a great understanding of the body and also give one great sensitivity. Wing Chun teaches one the same things through Chi Sau. Chi Sau is not just rolling your arms around and learning how to feel force from your opponents arms. It is about learning to feel and react to various types of energy. If trained properly you will be able to sense your opponenets energy and react to it. A good Chi Sau/Wing Chun persons will be able to draw an opponenet in or side to side or back based on the energy being given by the other person. In doing so he will be able to disrupt their balance and perform throws of his own. Also there is an exercise called Chi Gerk where one learns to perform Chi Sau with the legs. This ability can come in very handy in countering throws
Judo is an excellent art and will add many things to ones Wing Chun. It would be unfair to state Wing Chun or Judo, or any other art, were superior. Wing Chun specializes in close range fighting and that is where one wants to be when using it, still one can fight at various ranges effectiviely using the same art. Judo also specializes in very close range as well, many of the throws, particularily Hip throws require body contact to be done effectively.
neither is better or worse and neither has a specific weakness related to the other style.
Considering the age of this post and my failing memory could you please elaborate on your post. I would like to know which Police you are referring to. For example are you stating that the Japanese Police study Chin Na which is a Chinese art? Or are you implying that Police Departments in other parts of the world are taught Chin Na as part of the 'standard" curriculum? Please let me know which you mean so I can better grasp where you are soming from.
Considering you are referring to American Police departments I would tend to agree that many departments have implemented some sort of Controlling/Submission methods and many are based on Chin Na. Still, I am unaware of any standardized training program and would say that in most states most is set up individually by various departments. It is only in Japan, that I am sure of, that there is a standardized program which incorporates the study of Martial Arts into the Police Departments. As a matter of fact, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is my understanding that Japan “requires” training in the Martial Arts and even allows time to be put aside for a minimum to be maintained. Still, I think they would lean more towards Karate or Ju Jitsu/Aikido rather than a foreign method like Chin Na.
I was told by a japanese friend of mine that all police in japan train in judo (called Police Judo). I also heard they teach a type of aikido geared for police. It makes perfect sence to chose these two arts as police want to control a suspect with out causing him permanent harm.
I was under the impression that the Police in Japan opt more for Aikijitsu (sp?). However I could be wrong. Would love more info on specifics if you could provide them.
Good Reverend,
Are you training for fun or protection? Judo is a heavy Gi oriented MA. I don’t know where you live, but nobody wears gi’s on the street here. BJJ is gi oriented to a point, but most of the techniques are totally applicable to normal clothing. I would say ditch the Judo before you become “envolved” too much and find a BJJ or Sambo school. I know your schedule and budget isn’t flexible, but teeth aren’t cheap and time off from work recouperating in a hospital doesn’t fit in most peoples schedule.
Those pine boards had it commin to them-besides, I’m not allowed to hit real people!!!
Although I am sure you mean well I would tend to disagree about dropping Judo in favour of BJJ. While you are correct in stating that Judo does most of its work wearing Gi’s so does BJJ. Also, BJJ spends too much time on the groundfighting aspect, IMHO, to be considered the most viable street art. It is great when faced one on one and with a nice clean surface to fight on. But, I do not relish the prospect of rolling around on the ground in an asphalt parking lot filled with broken glass, or with one or two of my opponents firends standing aorund.
The concepts of Judo, as well as most MA’s, will translate into other situations, even BJJ and it is the concepts which you must be concerned with not the specific techniques. Judo trains one all about off-balancing an opponent and how to utilize his strength against them. It also covers a variety of throwing techniques, foot, hip, shoulder and sacrifice throws. In addition it covers groundfighting as well. All in all a pretty well rounded appraoch, even if it is really a “sport” rather than combat art Still, the concetps translate into viable street defense. If you understand them. Besides, Reverent Tim studies Wing Chun as well so I don’t think his street defense will be that lacking.
I don’t think the gi is much of a handicap or crutch when trained properly. If you learn the principles behind controlling your opponent in a standing or ground grapple, then you won’t be dependant on the gi. This fact is especially true against untrained fighters. They are clueless when it comes to grappling.
Also, don’t be so quick to dismiss BJJ for self-defense. That was what it was created for and has since evolved in the sport version that you see today. Different schools have different strengths and approaches though, so it’s difficult to generalize one way or another. In my opinion, the watering down process has already begun. Like with any other art or system of fighting, it is what you make it.
Please don’t misconstrue my intention. I am not putting down BJJ or any other art. However, as it is or has ben presented here in the States it does not seem to be the most viable street defense art. I would tend to agree with you as to the “watering down” effect.
I think that all arts are effective when trained properly. The problem is in getting the proper training. In other words if an art is predominately used for sport it will reflect that. For example, have you ever gone to a tournament and seen guys leave themselves wide open or even present their back to an opponent because there were no points given for strikes to the back? Think about how these guys would fare on the street for real. I have said it before and I will say it again, Judo was designed for sport. However, that is not to say it can not be an effective street art when combined with Atemi Wazi etc. Bjj could be good in certain circumstances but not so goo din others.
If you read any MA magazine you will see all kinds of adds for the “ultimate” fighting system. Many of these claim to need little training to be effectively used by the average person. This is what I am against. Let’s be realistic. If you train to deal one on one and go to the ground then in the street against more than one you will most likley have a problem. Likewise if I am a stand up fighter and am taken to the ground I will have more difficulty as well.
There is no ultimate art which will work for everyone in every circumstance. The key is to find an art you like and learn it to the best of your ability. I think that most who do this will find their art, whatever it may be, to more than meet their needs.
i’m with you 100% on this one.no offense to ginsue,i like your posts,but from what i’ve read and seen documented on judo it was developed to be a sport.why would he take the combat applications out of jujitsu were it not?
it was taught in public schools as part of the curriculum to instill discipline.
when it was brought to the U.S. teddy roosevelt took lessons,and it was taught to women because it was believed to be empowering to them.
i believe my facts are straight,correct me if i’m wrong.
null<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and while i have alot of respect for BJJ,and am going to take it soon,it isn't the best answer for every situation either.
if there’s more than one person looking to kick your ass then it might not be a good idea to grab one of them and roll around on the ground with them.it seems fairly obvious that you’re not going to come out of it in very good shape
[/quote]
Still, the concetps translate into viable street defense. If you understand them. Besides, Reverent Tim studies Wing Chun as well so I don’t think his street defense will be that lacking. 