jkd politics

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

i know a guy who teaches martial arts, he then went to be sponsored by ric tucci, and in only 1 private lesson a month, for 9 months,(9lessons), he was given a apprentice instructor certificate. why? because he has to bring all his students to guro dans seminars.
yet at the same time, i have a friend who trained with us, moved to LA, and trains at dans school for 3 years now, and goes 5 nights a week, and he says he will not get that same certificate for at least a few more years, why is that?

because it has become political stuff, the guy who moved to LA, has ten times more material than the other guy, and can perform ten times better, yet he is not a school owner, and does not bring students to seminars. the guy is so frustrated, he wanst to move back to the east coast and get the sponsor and get a certificate so he can teach.

VERY UNFAIR GROUP

2

Yes, yes. It’s very unfair, your friend getting to train with one of the greatest martial arts instructors in the world 5 times a week. I’ll remember him in my prayers tonight.

What’s the priority here? The certificate? Or the information?

Stuart B.

3

Seems to me your ‘friend’ has bigger problems then trying to get a piece of paper that says “Im a legit teacher.”

Hands tell the tale of skill, nothing else. I wouldent complain if I trained with Guru Inosanto 5 times a week. I wouldent complain at all.

Whats the rush to be a teacher?

Who cares about the other guy? What difference does he make to your skill or your friend’s skill?

:eek:

4

yenhoi, it makes a big difference, because after all our years of training, unless we fight in street, or mma, what is our real goal?
after about ten years of training, if your not getting into fighting, the other option is too get into teaching, so you can train and make money, and love your job.

my friend has years of training under his belt, and would never teach jkd without a legite certificate, the fighting part is a small piece, when you reach a certain age, and experience,

i mean honestly, how many fights has guro dan had in the last 20-30 years? do you think his motivation to train is to fight? when you reach a certain age and level, the arts more intrigue you, and you want to be healthy, train hard, but you need to make money, and reason why many martial arts guys eventually quit, is because of lack of time, because of a job. so many hardcore guys who want to teach, so they can train forever,etc, and these days, you need a certificate, unless you want to be called a poser or whatever. it is good business to be certified by someone good.

so i can understand my friends resentment, he put his life on hold, to move 3000 miles to train,and get certified, he had no problem with waiting a few more years, but was very bothered by the seminar thing, yes, he will get great experience there, but will also soon run out of cash, and was hoping to open a school sometime soon

anyway, its a sad thing when this stuff happens

5

Sure.

But give it a rest, when your ready to teach, then your ready to teach. It has little to do with certificates. Judge a teacher by his students, and a student by his actions. If there is something wrong with your friend, or the other guy, it will be very easy to tell. A certificate doesnt hit back.

Would I be learning from my teacher if he wasent legit and had all the paperwork? No, probably not. I also wouldent be there if he had a huge dojo, 600 adult and children students, and 60 random instructors working for him.

When you decide to teach people you need to make a decision. Are you going to teach in order to make good students, or are you going to teach in order to make good cash? Teaching and Buisness are not always directly related, or always exclusive. Your art doesnt have to be a buisness, and if it is, then it doesnt always have to be a good buisness. Even if your the teacher, your concern should after all this still be the subject of fighting, and if your not fighting, then your students should be.

:eek:

6

Consider this, flaco:

Did anybody give BRUCE LEE a little certificate?

7

consider thi- did bruce have a commercially accepted matrtial arts business? only because he was a movie star, did he make money teaching, people saw his talent when working with him, and his demos. he never really made money teaching, when he wasnt famous.

i am referring to the fact of opening a successful school, not just being a fighter. an example, is all the now famous jkd guys yhaving got certified by dan, that gives them credibility, also people make a fuss over who bruce certified, so your statement above, says that all the other jkd guys who never trained with a legite jkd lineage are ok also.

the certificate is not the goal of learning, however when you have trained in martial arts for like 15 years as my friend has, and he did silat, wc, etc, he feels ripped, because of the politics. anyway, i just brought up the point, i have no time to argue about it.
8

If he’s been training for 15 years, couldn’t he just open up a school anyway? Surely he’s qualified (on paper and otherwise) to teach something. And then he can incorporate JKD methodology. Or is it the name that he’s looking for?

Stuart B.

9

:rolleyes:

10

flaco, you don’t need a certification to open a successful school - or to teach good kung fu.

I’ve opened a school this year, and we’re doing quite well. I don’t even have a formal certification from my sifu, especially since I ended up changing all of his applications to fit the modern day anyway.

The bottom line is that martial arts clients want to know is whether or not you can BRING IT in terms of skill level. Almost all of my students have studied other systems extensively, some longer than I’ve been alive. And yet they keep coming month after month despite having no contracts.

If your friend is really that skilled in martial arts - and I don’t doubt that he is - people won’t care if he doesn’t have his certification from some organization. They’ll see him talk and move and KNOW that he’s a master worth respecting. And they’ll even show it by paying $$$.

GOOD martial artists don’t give a hoot about belts or certification if you can help them fight better.

Your friend needs to go his own way financially and otherwise.

11

i can appreciate your view, however, most martial arts schools that are hardcore, and have good fighters, are not making a great living. i am happy that you are. yes, my friend has his black in tkd, and some other stuff, however jkd is what he wants to teach, and he really can’t do it without certification. he can, but it always comes back to— people calling inosontos school, etc. and asking who is certified.
im also talking about having a school where you make money, like 3000 a week,etc. which is very easily attainable. but they are more commercialized.
also, to go make money doing seminars and such, where you get like 2500 a weekend, plus plane ,hotel, etc, you need certification, unless your a known professional fighter.
as much as it is bogus, its a reality. and i have several friends, and my former teacher, who make that kind of weekly money with a school, having contracts, and having about 160 students, and yes, alot are kids.
i am more into hardcore training, and if i opened a school like that, i would have a special class for the hardcore guys. but in order for me to train with the best guys, and travel out of state to do it, i need money, as does my friend, so just making a grand a week with a hardcore school wont cut it. unless of course you open a bjj school, the market for this is very good, but of course you will get hammered if your not certified or ranked by anyone.
anyway, whatever it takes, the bottom line is are you gonna be a pro fighter? or a businessman, doing what you love, and getting paid well, without selling out. so there are alot of things involved. there are a ton of great fighters out there, that can kill me and you, and many better teachers, so something at our schools has to bring people in, yes, our ability is one, but having inosonto vouch for you is a big seller, and you will get more than just local students.
anyway, its my friends issue, i just mentioned it,its not my problem, i have my certifications, and skill, i just felt bad for the guy, because of the politics. im sure he will do well anyway.

12

I think thats pretty weak asz.

IMO.

:eek:

13

no, you just dont think.

14

flaco,

It seems odd to me that your friend needs Inosanto’s certification to feel like he can teach. And yet doesn’t seem to trust Inosanto’s judgment in granting it. Has he talked to Guro Dan about this issue? If not, it seems that should be the step BEFORE publically griping about Inosanto’s politics on a forum.

Stuart B.

15

I think your friend just wants to make a buck off someone else’s name, rather then his own hands.

But thats just what it looks like from your very keen posts.

:rolleyes:

16

flaco, I think that times are changing.

More and more, I’m running into people that don’t want the standard tae kwon do or karate or even judo regimen.

People are - and always will be - slightly nervous about training hardcore martial arts. But any truly good hardcore method will feature restraint and a nearly zero injury rate, or so Royce Gracie believes.

Just this Saturday, I was asked to adjudicate part of a black belt test for a Hawaiian kempo school. Bear in mind that I have NO certifications or even a school uniform. Yet I was asked to help test a black belt student because the senseis had met me, sparred me a bit, and deemed me competent by their standards. Certainly it wasn’t my certification or dress that earned their approval.

People complain to me all the time that finding real hardcore martial arts schools is tough - and I’m in Phoenix, the 3rd largest city in the USA!

I totally understand your friend’s issue about certification, having myself had doubts when I went my own way. But once he gets out there and his first students sign on, his angst will disappear. If he’s as good as you say he is, people will gladly pay him money to show them how to defend themselves.

In the business of martial arts, the only true certification that counts is the $$ that students pay if you are teaching them that which they feel they need to learn.

17

guys, lets drop this issue, its my friends problem, i just mentioned that politics suck, but let me end with this

 my friend is not trying to make a living off dan's name, he trains at the academy like 5 days a week, for a few years, and is not ranked as high as the other guy who only took 8 privates from tucci,and owns a school and has to bring students to seminars. it is clear cut politics, and my friend moved to california to train with dan, and get certified by the best and learn the material. now anyone would be ****ed that the other guy just took one lesson a month and got certified, and now has a very successful enrollment, by promoting jkd,and that he is under dan.
   yenhoi, anyone can fight, no matter what, someone is always better than you or i, fighting is one part of the picture, can you teach, and where did you get the material, can you teach a system from a-z, or are you gonna just teach streetfighting?i have friends who are streetfighters, that mop the floor with martial artist, but can they actually teach what they do? no, they are just animals that will tear someones head off, and they have some bjj or thai backround.

 my friend can easily open a school with his other certifications,but he wanted to train with the guy who he thought was best. by being ranked, you know you reached a certain level, and have a certain amount of material to teach.
 bottom line is, can you fight? yes, no, in reality, big deal, do you fight in the ring?if you fight in the street it shouldnt happen often, so what are your goals?if your goal is to own a school, and have more to offer than the school down the block,your lineage is important,as well as your fighting and teaching skill.
   i laugh at alot of the hardcore guys i train with, always pumped, always ego, etc. we do knife fighting for hours on end, but 99 percent chance i will never have a knife fight, etc, i do it because i love it, and will help in an emergency, but also i can teach it and make money, and save someone elses life maybe.

 when you start to reach the 30-40 year old age group, fighting is not really your priority,and business is business, whatever certificates help you put food on the table, go get them.dont train for the goal of only a ranking, but if i work my ass off for 2 years five days a week, and some guy takes 9 lessons and is ranked higher, i would be ****ed also.

 again, lets drop it, the point is that burt richardson, vunak,etc are all great teachers, but dans certification is what got them where they are, just as william cheung,hawkins cheung, got where they are because of yip man and bruce lees name, fighting is the first priority, but when you can fight, your next plateau or goal is to make money at what you love doing.
18

Re: jkd politics

Originally posted by flaco
[B]i know a guy who teaches martial arts, he then went to be sponsored by ric tucci, and in only 1 private lesson a month, for 9 months,(9lessons), he was given a apprentice instructor certificate. why? because he has to bring all his students to guro dans seminars.
yet at the same time, i have a friend who trained with us, moved to LA, and trains at dans school for 3 years now, and goes 5 nights a week, and he says he will not get that same certificate for at least a few more years, why is that?

because it has become political stuff, the guy who moved to LA, has ten times more material than the other guy, and can perform ten times better, yet he is not a school owner, and does not bring students to seminars. the guy is so frustrated, he wanst to move back to the east coast and get the sponsor and get a certificate so he can teach.

VERY UNFAIR GROUP [/B]

I trained under Sifu Rick Tucci for four years. I know all about him and his training. Lemme tell you something, he’s one of the best! Even Guro Dan is stated in saying that. I don’t know exactly what is up with this guy you talk about, as I haven’t been there for a few years, but I can assure you that if Sifu Rick thinks he’s good enough, he’s good enough. Everyone that Sifu Rick certifies is also certified by Guro Dan. I don’t know how Guro Dan teaches, but I know at his seminars he isn’t too hands on with everyone. He usually just gives a drill and then goes to talk to Sifu Rick and Simo Amy.

19

Originally posted by flaco
i am referring to the fact of opening a successful school, not just being a fighter. an example, is all the now famous jkd guys yhaving got certified by dan, that gives them credibility, also people make a fuss over who bruce certified, so your statement above, says that all the other jkd guys who never trained with a legite jkd lineage are ok also.

IMHO, who Sijo Bruce Lee certified is very important in the fact that THAT person (that being Guro Dan, who is the only one certified by Sijo Bruce Lee) knows the full curriculum and all the ins and outs and abc’s of that system. Training under someone who is fully certified to teach is a lot better than training under someone who is not. There is a big difference between “Apprentice Instructor” and “Assnt or Full Intructor” also.

20

kymus, no doubt tucci is pretty good, thats irrelevant, the amount of material he gave the guy im talking about was not so much hands on, the guy also teaches, so he was given a ton of stuff, and a basic how to, and told to teach it to his students. also the teachers that go to ric, are not trained as hard as students, they are older, and the whole idea is money. they dont really have to be in shape, or anything, they are more tested on how good their students are, and how many go to dans seminars. my whole point was just that.