This is a question/topic which I have been contemplating for a while; who certified your shifu to teach his/her respective discipline, or we assume because they are Asian that they are?
Personally, I know that two of my shifu were certified by their shifu; actually, one received his shifu’s wuguan after his passing. However, I’m not able to verified my others shifus.
However, does this take anything away from their ability, because at the end shouldn’t a shifu be judge on his ability/achievement or gung/gong. Therefore, do we judge our shifus based upon their abilities or credentials?
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125868]This is a question/topic which I have been contemplating for a while; who certified your shifu to teach his/her respective discipline, or we assume because they are Asian that they are?
Personally, I know that two of my shifu were certified by their shifu; actually, one received his shifu’s wuguan after his passing. However, I’m not able to verified my others shifus.
However, does this take anything away from their ability, because at the end shouldn’t a shifu be judge on his ability/achievement or gung/gong. Therefore, do we judge our shifus based upon their abilities or credentials? [/QUOTE]
I did.
The moment he was able to show me something I could learn and make me a better MA, that certified Him to me as a good teacher.
I have seen many a “Certiifed” teacher that couldn’t fight OR teach his way out of a paper bag.
Some with lineages almost as impressive as my Johnson, almost.
If there is one thing I have learned in over 30 years of MA, in different systems and in different countries it is this:
Skill counts, paper is good for wiping your butt.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1125876]I did.
The moment he was able to show me something I could learn and make me a better MA, that certified Him to me as a good teacher.
I have seen many a “Certiifed” teacher that couldn’t fight OR teach his way out of a paper bag.
Some with lineages almost as impressive as my Johnson, almost.
If there is one thing I have learned in over 30 years of MA, in different systems and in different countries it is this:
Skill counts, paper is good for wiping your butt.[/QUOTE]
However, the second half of my question: what if your shifu claims to be “certified,” but never shows proof or is later discredited?
For example, a student returns back to Hong Kong, and meets his shigong, and realizes that his shifu back in the states was only never certified to teach?
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125887]However, the second half of my question: what if your shifu claims to be “certified,” but never shows proof or is later discredited?
For example, a student returns back to Hong Kong, and meets his shigong, and realizes that his shifu back in the states was only never certified to teach? [/QUOTE]
Well, that has never happened to me so I don’t know how I would feel, BUT I would think that IF whatever I had learned WORKED for me then maybe he SHOULD be certified, LOL !
I wonder if Cus D’amto or Angelo Dundee or Emanuel Steward were ever "certified?
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125887]a student returns back to Hong Kong, and meets his shigong, and realizes that his shifu back in the states was only never certified to teach? [/QUOTE]
This could not happen to me either because my Shigong no longer lived on this planet.
My teacher married to his teacher’s daughter (son in law). My teacher’s teacher married to his teachers’s daughter (son in law). That tradition was broken in my generation because my teacher’s daughter had her own girlfriend.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1125893]My teacher married to his teacher’s daughter (son in law). My teacher’s teacher married to his teachers’s daughter (son in law). That tradition was broken in my generation because my teacher’s daughter had her own girlfriend.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1125893]My teacher married to his teacher’s daughter (son in law). My teacher’s teacher married to his teachers’s daughter (son in law). That tradition was broken in my generation because my teacher’s daughter had her own girlfriend.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125887]However, the second half of my question: what if your shifu claims to be certified, but never shows proof or is later discredited?
For example, a student returns back to Hong Kong, and meets his shigong, and realizes that his shifu back in the states was only never certified to teach? [/QUOTE]
I don’t know what good proof would be for sure other than their actual knowledge as SJ pointed out. If somebody knows their stuff. They know their stuff. I would be concerned about the lying though. I wouldn’t necessarily leave their school if they had lied about their lineage assuming that they were actually very good, but as I said, I would probably start looking around because it is a major lie.
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125887]However, the second half of my question: what if your shifu claims to be “certified,” but never shows proof or is later discredited?
For example, a student returns back to Hong Kong, and meets his shigong, and realizes that his shifu back in the states was only never certified to teach? [/QUOTE]
Read more into what Ronin said. I don’t care if your shifu has been accredited by or has the papers that say he can teach, his skills will be what determines if his knowledge has worth.
Accredidation means little today, unfortunately. Mostly because of the fakes and phonies who made up their paperwork to allow them to dupe people into believing they have some secret undiscovered art, or to seem better than what they really were.
For example, if I walk into a school, and the instructor immediately begins talking about his lineage, his credentials, his 3,000 year old art, his super duper deadly secrets, a red flag goes up. If he asks me to watch and/or participate in a class, most of the time I will know he is legitimate or at least believes himself to be the real deal. As Ronin stated, paper is good for wiping your a**ss with, little else.
In the case of boxing; your fight career speaks for itself and or how many successful fighters you have developed.
A motivate behind my question is that individuals get caught up on their shifu credentials or dare I say hype/myth and then actually looking at his/her skills or personal achievements.
Certification only matters to me if there is a measurable test to get that certification.
Permission is a more apt term for what occurs in most lines.
The guy who taught me my style was certified, then had his certification taken away apparently(without being told), then the best friend of his teacher just cut through the middle man and certified him again. Drama and politics.
I was given permission by my teacher, those who train under me and learn the set, the principles and fundamental movements, and usage in pressure testing, are done learning from me, and I tell them, if they teach, spend a couple of years with the others of us who know the whole system first, not in a class, we get together twice a week and do tui shou and help each other with drills we want to work on. After that, I don’t care what they do with their kung fu, it’s theirs, not my concern, but at least they have all of our notes and have had to face all the variations in approaches we use.
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125904]In the case of boxing; your fight career speaks for itself and or how many successful fighters you have developed.
A motivate behind my question is that individuals get caught up on their shifu credentials or dare I say hype/myth and then actually looking at his/her skills or personal achievements.[/QUOTE]
I have no problem learning from someone who wasn’t certified by their instructors. I only have a problem with them lying about it.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1125906]I have no problem learning from someone who wasn’t certified by their instructors. I only have a problem with them lying about it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125904]In the case of boxing; your fighter career speaks for itself and or how many successful fighters you have developed.
A motivate behind my question is that individuals get caught up on their shifu credentials or dare I say hype/myth and then actually looking at his/her skills or personal achievements.[/QUOTE]
Until one has successful fighters, one doesn’t and before their share of great fighters, those coaches had nothing.
Other than what they KNEW and could PASS on.
The same for any physical activity.
I am certified in ITF TKD, Kodokan Judo and Kyokushin karate.
So are some guys I know that suck the perverbial ass, some certified even higher and more directly from the founder than Me and they still suck ass.
They suck a teaching and at fighting.
I am not certified in SPM or Hung Kuen and probably NEVER will be, BUT I can show you how to use those methods to put some serious hurt on someone.
I think the issue of certification becomes and issue when it is FAKED.
When someone says they have the "real insert MA here taught from the original master or best student, and they are lying, THEN we have an issue.
EX:
My HK sifu was recommended to me from my contacts in Macao, he lineage in HK, like his brothers in SPM, is traced back to Macao.
The guys that recommended him are dudes I trust and having met him and his brother, I was convinced of their skill.
I never verififed anything beyond what I saw and felt.
Many certifications many absolutely dick!! I was recently invited to a Krav Maga seminar so that I could be “certified” to teach Krav Maga after a week long course. A fucking week:eek:
So ask yourself this, would you rather learn from someone who trained hard for 10 years from an unknown but learned good skills and is a bad a**ss, or Dewey ****hard down the street who got a week certification and now is “certified”. Certification in martial arts is like being certified in anything else, if you pay someone the right amount of money you get a piece of paper that says you know what your doing, regardless of whether or not you actually do.
[QUOTE=Mulong;1125868]This is a question/topic which I have been contemplating for a while; who certified your shifu to teach his/her respective discipline, or we assume because they are Asian that they are?
Personally, I know that two of my shifu were certified by their shifu; actually, one received his shifu’s wuguan after his passing. However, I’m not able to verified my others shifus.
However, does this take anything away from their ability, because at the end shouldn’t a shifu be judge on his ability/achievement or gung/gong. Therefore, do we judge our shifus based upon their abilities or credentials? [/QUOTE]
