[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1254624]Danny hasn’t run into anyone yet who can just tie him up into a pretzel and own him in that chi sau drill[/QUOTE]
Wayfaring nailed it. Good post. Can’t wait for him to actually cross paths with someone who isn’t going to play his game. 
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1254641]Why not? What type of hand fighting do you use engaging from the feet in wrestling before you get in close to be able to pummel and do clinch work? Is it better or worse for entry than the poon sau platform chi sau?
Functional is a matter of how you train it.[/QUOTE]
Yep its better its called hand fighting, its what you see if every wrestling match where punching is not allowed, why is it better? because its actually seen in a fight, the set up, stance and hand positioning is exactly what you see in a real match
When striking is allowed you, well gasp you either practise striking into the clinch, or you practise covering and clinching when struck or cover and crash the line, and you practise these in MMA because that’s what you see in a real fight> What you don’t do is use some abstract rolling platform to try to set your takedowns up because the stance, hand positioning and timing is all wrong, that’s mixing a functional (ie functions in the real world exactly as in training ) platform with an abstract method which no one on this forum can actually agree the use for
[QUOTE=Frost;1254646]Yep its better its called hand fighting, its what you see if every wrestling match where punching is not allowed, why is it better? because its actually seen in a fight, the set up, stance and hand positioning is exactly what you see in a real match.
[/QUOTE]
OK. “actually seen in a fight” - I guess you mean a wrestling match here. In my experience, the specifics of hand fighting aren’t taught in a lot of detail in wrestling. It’s more functional - reaching out and trying to tie up wrist/collar. I see untrained hand fighting in “every” wrestling match, and skilled hand fighting in a lesser subgroup of wrestlers. I think untrained hand fighting can be easily shut down with moderate chi sau skills. I mean just do an experiment and try to pummel to underhooks with hand fighting while someone is trying to keep you from doing that via chi sau.
Or you could just say you “shouldn’t” do that I suppose. But to me that’s kind of ignorant when you could explore the boundaries of things.
When striking is allowed you, well gasp you either practise striking into the clinch, or you practise covering and clinching when struck or cover and crash the line, and you practise these in MMA because that’s what you see in a real fight>
I do strike into clinches. Not so much cover and clinch as that’s more of a desperation move - cover and circle out maybe or cover and return fire. I’m not sure what you mean by cover and crash the line - maybe explain that. What I practice in MMA may be different than what you do.
What you don’t do is use some abstract rolling platform to try to set your takedowns up because the stance, hand positioning and timing is all wrong, that’s mixing a functional (ie functions in the real world exactly as in training ) platform with an abstract method which no one on this forum can actually agree the use for
I don’t do any of that. However, in training abstract rolling chi sau platforms in the past and doing WCK now I have developed a little sense of centerline, balance and tools so that it influences how I hand fight. Just simple forward intent on the centerline can wedge through many hand fighting movements.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1254651]OK. “actually seen in a fight” - I guess you mean a wrestling match here. In my experience, the specifics of hand fighting aren’t taught in a lot of detail in wrestling. It’s more functional - reaching out and trying to tie up wrist/collar. I see untrained hand fighting in “every” wrestling match, and skilled hand fighting in a lesser subgroup of wrestlers. I think untrained hand fighting can be easily shut down with moderate chi sau skills. I mean just do an experiment and try to pummel to underhooks with hand fighting while someone is trying to keep you from doing that via chi sau.
Or you could just say you “shouldn’t” do that I suppose. But to me that’s kind of ignorant when you could explore the boundaries of things.
I do strike into clinches. Not so much cover and clinch as that’s more of a desperation move - cover and circle out maybe or cover and return fire. I’m not sure what you mean by cover and crash the line - maybe explain that. What I practice in MMA may be different than what you do.
I don’t do any of that. However, in training abstract rolling chi sau platforms in the past and doing WCK now I have developed a little sense of centerline, balance and tools so that it influences how I hand fight. Just simple forward intent on the centerline can wedge through many hand fighting movements.[/QUOTE]
Ok let me choose my words more carefully since you seem to want to nit pick over language. I should have said seen in a wrestling match, in a submission wrestling match, or in any grappling engagement where striking is not allowed. And I am really surprised you have never seen hand fighting taught, even here in little old England grip fighting, how to control the wrist, the elbow, the bicep, how to peel the grips is taught and we don’t have freestyle in our schools?? Now admittedly you don’t spend much time learning them, because they are functional, easy to lean and pick up, you spend your time refining them in actual training rather than drilling them separately in the hope of magically making it work once grappling, and that’s sort of the point.
And trained/untrained hand fighting you are still making my point, it (hand fighting, grip fighting) is what happens naturally so why try to create a artificial platform to train out of when you never see it and never use it the way you train it. Why not just train what you actually see in a match (is that better than fight for you?) because…gasp …its what you actually use in reality
You are assuming I haven’t done that, that ive never trained grappling against a tcma or wing chun person or done chi sau into clinch work, I have (I have also doing pushing hands into clinch work)and theres a better quicker way to learn inside control, sensitivity and balance in my opinion, and that’s to actually hand fight and grapple
Nice to see you don’t feel the need train for desperation times, some of us feel the need to because we come up against fairly good strikers in training from time to time and want to get hold of them 
Cover and crash the line is just that, it’s a term Rodney king and karl tanswell came up with you cover/shield, used footwork and level changes to crash into the opponent, and commence your clinch game.
Its funny how people never do any of that (what we see in chi sau which is bad), they always do it differently or better, but we have to take their word for it as their no clips of this different version around
As for doing MMA differently than you, i dont see how thats possible? I mean its not like wing chun where there seems to be dozens of ways of doing things MMA is MMA, and the way i do it is the same way Paul Daley, Andre Winner, Jimmy Wallhead and et al do it, stand up clinch and ground work with an opponent training to stop me hitting or submitting him…is that different from how you do it then?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1254639]I agree. Chi-sau is not a natural drill. It’s not sparring, but a specific developmental drill. Adding something like grappling, and in such a nonsensical way, is maybe trying to be progressive but really missing the point.[/QUOTE]
The only thing chi sao develops is the the ability to chi sao.
wing chun blast
chi-sao is chi-sao, not grappling. these guys don;t really know how to stick.
their arms and hands, not train to stick. to busy trying to hit one another.
in a scale of one to ten, one being the worst. they are a TWO.
just my POV.
[QUOTE=Frost;1254659]Ok let me choose my words more carefully since you seem to want to nit pick over language. I should have said seen in a wrestling match, in a submission wrestling match, or in any grappling engagement where striking is not allowed. And I am really surprised you have never seen hand fighting taught, even here in little old England grip fighting, how to control the wrist, the elbow, the bicep, how to peel the grips is taught and we don’t have freestyle in our schools?? Now admittedly you don’t spend much time learning them, because they are functional, easy to lean and pick up, you spend your time refining them in actual training rather than drilling them separately in the hope of magically making it work once grappling, and that’s sort of the point.
And trained/untrained hand fighting you are still making my point, it (hand fighting, grip fighting) is what happens naturally so why try to create a artificial platform to train out of when you never see it and never use it the way you train it. Why not just train what you actually see in a match (is that better than fight for you?) because…gasp …its what you actually use in reality
You are assuming I haven’t done that, that ive never trained grappling against a tcma or wing chun person or done chi sau into clinch work, I have (I have also doing pushing hands into clinch work)and theres a better quicker way to learn inside control, sensitivity and balance in my opinion, and that’s to actually hand fight and grapple
[/quote]
Well my perspective is trying to apply WCK platform principles while actually hand fighting and grappling on a daily basis. I have never seen centerline taught or COG taught in hand fighting in wrestling. Your argument that it occurs naturally doesn’t work for me. I see far too much variance in quality between people who have come up just actively hand fighting daily with no instruction. I can use centerline and COG principles to increase the quality of my hand fighting. I don’t listen to people who say you “shouldn’t” do that.
Nice to see you don’t feel the need train for desperation times, some of us feel the need to because we come up against fairly good strikers in training from time to time and want to get hold of them
We train to be well rounded. If you are going to clinch to avoid being beat up, initiate momentum and get in first putting them against a wall or cage or down.
Cover and crash the line is just that, it’s a term Rodney king and karl tanswell came up with you cover/shield, used footwork and level changes to crash into the opponent, and commence your clinch game.
Okay not familiar with it. Level changes and footwork to get in on the opponent is great. Cover/shield as an entry technique is not as good as it indicates a passive state getting beat on to achieve the clinch. You can certainly time a punch and get under it for a takedown though. Maybe just terminology here but I’m emphasizing a point.
Its funny how people never do any of that (what we see in chi sau which is bad), they always do it differently or better, but we have to take their word for it as their no clips of this different version around
Maybe. It’s been a while since I’ve chi sau’d.
As for doing MMA differently than you, i dont see how thats possible? I mean its not like wing chun where there seems to be dozens of ways of doing things MMA is MMA, and the way i do it is the same way Paul Daley, Andre Winner, Jimmy Wallhead and et al do it, stand up clinch and ground work with an opponent training to stop me hitting or submitting him…is that different from how you do it then?
I see a vast difference in how people train MMA evidenced in local shows and different clubs even in the city I live in. Live rounds will be pretty similar, but how people drill is different. Also the quality of coaching shows up.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1254670]The only thing chi sao develops is the the ability to chi sao.[/QUOTE]
The way most people play with it like a game or sparring replacement, that’s probably so.
The full episode:
[QUOTE=BPWT;1254820]The full episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PGS61EwnpU[/QUOTE]
Thanks BPWT. Nice to see the previous clip in perspective. Jin’s approach to WC/WT/VT is different from mine, but he’s a thoughtful guy with an interesting point of view. He also works very hard and is a better athlete than most his age. It’s a shame how quickly we dump on the guy on the basis of a short you-tube clip taken out of context.
IMO- not so. Depends on whether people know what they are doing.
Wow, Vaj! You properly used the quote function for the first time since 2004. Now just get rid of all those hyphens.
Danny seems be a nice guy but has a very limited understanding of chi sao. It is analogous to agreeing to work on a jab defense drill and then I kick you in the groin. Since Danny persists in using this slap on everyone he works with, it would be advisable to begin the chi sao drill at a more extended bridge. The problem is that he is using a drill that requires both to understand the purpose and boundaries of the drill. Danny wants to fight from chi sao, so lengthen the starting bridge. As the bridge is shortened you should be uprooting if you are going to make it a fighting drill (again, which it is not).
[QUOTE=sehing2;1255635]Danny seems be a nice guy but has a very limited understanding of chi sao. It is analogous to agreeing to work on a jab defense drill and then I kick you in the groin. [/QUOTE]
No, I disagree. When Danny is putting his palm in their faces, it is during free Chi Sao. They are exchanging at random. A palm to the face is valid and shows the other guy has left an opening. It isn’t analogous to kicking them in the groin at all. It was a valid shot, not a cheap shot. And that isn’t fighting from Chi Sao. It is simple rolling and seeking the opening. If the other guy can’t deal with the fact that Danny has freakishly long arms, that’s there problem, not his!
The problem is this:
Chi-Sao is simply a hand-coordination drill which already starts from an artificial body and hand position that will never be replicated in a fight. Given the artificial nature of the setup, it is possible to do a lot of things that have little value and/or no transfer to sparring (“Chi Sao tricks”). Tying somebody up is one of those; slapping with no knock-out power is another one. You can waste your time writing pages to justify this stuff, but your time will be better invested watching sparring videos and honestly asking yourself whether these slap-fests really add any value. Ask yourself what drills improve the attributes that will matter when you need to knock somebody out (this assumes punching power) quick, and then look at the time your training is dedicating to hone in on those attributes.
So this kind of Octopus Chi-Sao is worthless in my book.
Want to actually see whether somebody’s Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.
Sparring is good, depending on your definition of sparring.
[QUOTE=sehing2;1255671]Sparring is good, depending on your definition of sparring.[/QUOTE]
so what’s yours…
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1255668]The problem is this:
Chi-Sao is simply a hand-coordination drill which already starts from an artificial body and hand position that will never be replicated in a fight. Given the artificial nature of the setup, it is possible to do a lot of things that have little value and/or no transfer to sparring (“Chi Sao tricks”). Tying somebody up is one of those; slapping with no knock-out power is another one. You can waste your time writing pages to justify this stuff, but your time will be better invested watching sparring videos and honestly asking yourself whether these slap-fests really add any value. Ask yourself what drills improve the attributes that will matter when you need to knock somebody out (this assumes punching power) quick, and then look at the time your training is dedicating to hone in on those attributes.
So this kind of Octopus Chi-Sao is worthless in my book.
Want to actually see whether somebody’s Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.[/QUOTE]
Great post! A good article on Chi sau here.. http://vingtsunserbia.wordpress.com/the-system/chi-sao-pon-sao/ .
Chi sau is development, to bring about a skill set specific to VT, and from there the person uses that skill set in combat, VT=development, You= Application, VT is does not fight, YOU fight. Sparring is a drill as well. From the little that I saw in those Danny vids, he’s fighting in his chi sau, no real skill seen…just my opinion:)
James
“Want to actually see whether somebody’s Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.”
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense. It prepares you more for sport. Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone’s wing chun.
[QUOTE=sehing2;1255718]“Want to actually see whether somebody’s Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.”
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense. It prepares you more for sport. Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone’s wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Yawn…