I think you are failing to see the needed yang to make the yin work.
Greetings..
“People in IMA’s who don’t really have mastery over the principles must rely on strength to compensate.”
Agreed.
“But the ones who really understand the principle don’t need it. It won’t help and it won’t hurt either. It’s neutral in that regard.”
Mostly disagree.. unless you are speaking of those few genuine masters that can truly “listen and sense” you better than you can sense yourself.. they are out there, but not likely bothering with the nonsense rampant in this forum.. Otherwise, i sense that there is a certain correlation of physics and body mechanics that we must attend to on our way to finding our own mastery.. although, if someone at +/- 150 lbs. wants to climb in the cage with Frank Shamrock and take him down with purely Taiji principles, i am an eager audience..
I sense that there is a fine balance of strength and softness that best suits the vast majority of Taiji players.. i also have experienced the elusive qualities of Taiji that are what legends are made of.. unfortunately, i was on the receiving end..
Be well…
[SIZE=14]Um…[/SIZE]
What is the exact definition of strength. Taiji uses firmness, which uses strength, but not like most people use it. The wierd thing is, you can’t actually be firm, unless you can accept, and take the opponents force, while totally relaxed.
Is there no one here who can say, that, my little chinese master from china, throws me around easily, without hardly moving. Well, I guess Fu Pow is one.
Where are those BlackTaoist guys? Is their teacher not better than them? He’s just a little guy
(I sense that there is a fine balance of strength and softness that best suits the vast majority of Taiji players.. i also have experienced the elusive qualities of Taiji that are what legends are made of.. unfortunately, i was on the receiving end..)
well said;) , i would add that for those who have met such people it clearly difines where and what ones practice should be moveing to. it is often difficult to talk about such experiences because they are so out of the norm that for the most part, people either disbelieve or are very skeptical.
if you manage to get a small part of it, and are able to use it people tend to really understand that taiji is really very different.
I think some of the bemusement here is coming from the apparent failure of some to recognize that all martial arts intend to provide a skill which compensates for raw athleticism.
Do the neijia offer a characteristic solution to this problem? Sure they do, and this solution is great! But this does not, in any way, demean the characteristic solutions offered by boxing, BJJ, or countless other martial arts.
The neijia do not have to be elevated to the realm of the superhuman in order to appreciated. Their usefulness should be immediately obvious to anyone touching hands with a skilled practitioner, in the same way that this is true of other arts.
No, my little chinese teacher potato-sacks me around real good without much apparent effort.
Thing is, I don’t have much skill, and although he’s much smaller than me, dude is still strong as an ox.
Back to basics:
By strength, I mean muscular force.
Martial arts is at its essence, about the movement of the body.
Muscles accomplish the movement of the body.
There is no movement - NONE! - without at least some amount of strength behind it.
When movement is resisted, superior strength may overcome it.
When movement is initiated, tactile ‘listening’ and sensitivity may be used to follow, stick and neutralize it. This is MUCH more difficult that overcoming with superior strength, and relies much more heavily on a lack of the same qualties of sensitiviy, following, and sticking in the opponent.
Strength and skill are apples and oranges so can’t easily be compared. Even so, in my experience, I would say it takes more skill to overcome strength than it takes strength to overcome skill.
To rephrase - skill is better, but strength is easier.
Strength and skill is best of all.
Nice backtracking CSN. The voices of reason arrived by the likes of 3rdrateIMAkilla, Taijibob and bambooleaf and now your back tracking.
The point is that Taiji does not counter strength with strengths. So how important could it be to it?
You even contradict the Taiji classics. :rolleyes:
Simplified…
I think strong muscle’s are still necisary for taiji quan. Like CSN said in the his last post, muscular strength is part of everything we do. Strength is how strong your body is and skill is how effeciently you use it. I think real taijiquan should emphasize both strengthening your body and correct movement equally. I also think some people are mistaking muscular strength with force.
(I think real taijiquan should emphasize both strengthening your body and correct movement equally. I also think some people are mistaking muscular strength with force.)
I don’t know what real taijiquan is but I can say that maybe a different way of looking at it is, that the idea of strength is replaced by another idea that requires much strength to reach and then be discarded.
Until one really knows how to release tension in the body, the range of movement and sinking will be limited by only using isolated muscles to align and support the body. there is another way:cool:
This other way is what most of the training is about, it takes awhile before this can really be achieved and is the work of many yrs, it is also why most teachers will tell their students their still not relaxed or (song) enough.
We can see this with people with very little muscle development or slight builds using very deep stance or realtivly high stances.
they seem to be very relaxed, stable with out useing any type of hard force they are empty in the sense that there is no tension in their bodies. nothing for you to apply force to.
To someone trying to achieve the same thing it might feel like it takes a lot of strength to do until the real relaxation is achieved and the proper alignments mental and physical are found in ones self.
The mistake that I feel people make is to assume that by directly strengthen isolated body parts, somehow this will translate into core skills need for taiji. The real strength of taiji is one of the mind over the body. This is what most if not all the training is about.
As some one posted this does not make taiji any better then any other art, but it does make it a rather unique approach to MA studies in my experience. I might add the success rate of people actually acquiring the skills that many have spoken of is quite small, if one is only interested in MA there are many good arts that are easer to acquire and use
Please use quotes to show where I have contradicted myself, nitwit.
As for contradicting the taiji classics - I dunno, maybe I have. I’ve never read them.
Neither have I. Well, bits of them, but I don’t think my practice has suffered through not, as my instructors have.
Bob:
“I sense that there is a fine balance of strength and softness that best suits the vast majority of Taiji players..
if someone at +/- 150 lbs. wants to climb in the cage with Frank Shamrock and take him down with purely Taiji principles, i am an eager audience..”
Well said.
Right, Fu Pow: [SIZE=3]Um[/SIZE]
You are wrong, sorry.
“f-off for using “Um”.”
Um, Fuck off for having no sense of humour.
"And all I’m saying is that my teacher does not look strong, doesn’t “cross train”, doesn’t lift weights, etc, etc, etc. "
That doesn’t mean he’s not strong. I don’t do any of those things either, but I’m still stronger than I was before starting taijiquan.
"In fact he looks exactly like what everyone on here makes fun of…a “taiji hippy.” "
I currently have 80s hair and a full beard, so I suppose I do too.
I’m on the look out for a Slayer headband to add to the effect, but I don’t think they exist. In all seriousness, Iron, GDA, if you can help me out…
"he point is that Taiji does not counter strength with strengths. "
Agreed.
“So how important could it be to it?”
Because at some point you are going to need to damage your opponent. You’re not going to do that without using force, of which strength is a part. And what if you miss your contact and end up getting smacked in the face, thrown or whatever? You need to be strong and tough to fight, end of story.
You don’t need to be strong or tough to successfully demonstrate Taiji principles in a demo however.
(Because at some point you are going to need to damage your opponent. You’re not going to do that without using force)
The point is (for me, my experience) is that your own force is used against you. In this case the ability listen, sink and change is more important then having the ability to directly damage the opponent using your own force. Yes, you can be hurt pretty badly with your own force or intent. next time you jam your fingers or have a wrench slip and damage your hand please think of this.
Greetings..
bamboo_ leaf .. excellent analogies.. on point.. insights appreciated..
Be well..
Originally posted by scotty1
[B]Neither have I. Well, bits of them, but I don’t think my practice has suffered through not, as my instructors have.
Bob:
“I sense that there is a fine balance of strength and softness that best suits the vast majority of Taiji players..
if someone at +/- 150 lbs. wants to climb in the cage with Frank Shamrock and take him down with purely Taiji principles, i am an eager audience..”
Well said.
Right, Fu Pow: [SIZE=3]Um[/SIZE]
You are wrong, sorry.
“f-off for using “Um”.”
Um, Fuck off for having no sense of humour.
"And all I’m saying is that my teacher does not look strong, doesn’t “cross train”, doesn’t lift weights, etc, etc, etc. "
That doesn’t mean he’s not strong. I don’t do any of those things either, but I’m still stronger than I was before starting taijiquan.
"In fact he looks exactly like what everyone on here makes fun of…a “taiji hippy.” "
I currently have 80s hair and a full beard, so I suppose I do too.
I’m on the look out for a Slayer headband to add to the effect, but I don’t think they exist. In all seriousness, Iron, GDA, if you can help me out…
"he point is that Taiji does not counter strength with strengths. "
Agreed.
“So how important could it be to it?”
Because at some point you are going to need to damage your opponent. You’re not going to do that without using force, of which strength is a part. And what if you miss your contact and end up getting smacked in the face, thrown or whatever? You need to be strong and tough to fight, end of story.
You don’t need to be strong or tough to successfully demonstrate Taiji principles in a demo however. [/B]
Do you need strength to damage your opponent. Again, this goes against what the Taiji classics say. There is not one way to use the body for defense and one for attack. Both are the same. Both are not force against force.
Again, this goes against what the Taiji classics say
Quote them then.
To alter the path of an object along a desired route, you need to apply a “good” force at an angle which allows for redirection. If there is no force to change the direction of travel, there is no resistance to it’s movement, and the object will continue along it’s original course unimpeded.
If you meet the force head on with no angle for deflection (deflection here means “controlled” change; not just random hit away) then that is actually more along the lines of “bad” force. So really, it seems that the real issue is not actually the force that is applied, as you can’t help but apply a force to any object if you want to interact with it, but actually the angle and intent motivating it.
Greetings…
Sometimes we need to be practical.. force, energy, strength, whatever the desired label, is essential to movement.. is essential to moving objects.. the refinement or quality of structure and force working in unison can greatly economize on the amount of energy required to move an object.. physics lends a helping hand if we study the principles of fulcrums, by adjusting the placement of the fulcrum we can maximixe the effect of force.. by adjusting the placement of force and using our bodies as fulcrums we can achieve maximum results.. by understanding skeletal alignment we can discover the most productive places to apply the forces that up-root and off-balance a partner..
Some people advocate the minimal use of force, they disdain muscular development as counterproductive to Taiji.. what, then, do we offer the student that requires muscles and strength in their occupations? i suggest that Taiji teaches us how to maximize the tools we have, whatever they may be.. i do agree that over-developed muscles can be a hindrance as in restricted range of motion.. but, similarly, i have seen quite a few well-muscled (in shape) players that are relaxed and excellent Taiji examples.. except in the case of extremes i think that Taiji is not discrimnatory due to body types..
I take out the garbage, i paddle my canoe, i move furniture, i do many things that benefit from a certain amount of muscular development.. beyond what is reasonable in daily life i have no need to add muscle-mass to the equation.. cardio-vascular maintenance is essential and will add a certain tone and character to one’s physique and i find no contraindications in that discipline and Taiji.. i think that too many people take the intended metaphors of the classics too literally.. “eyes follow hand” doesnt mean to look at your hand, it means to stay focused on your “intention”, hand is a metaphor for what you are “doing”.. “concentrate on nose”, does not mean to look cross-eyed at your nose, it means to focus on your breathing, nose is a metaphor for breath.. relaxed and soft are reminders that rigidity and brutishness are self-defeating, not a directive to be limp and without substance..
If you examine your Taiji forms you will see many applications that imply the use of force.. a Taiji punch has no effect without a certain amount of energy.. like spaghetti, uncooked it is hard and brittle, easily broken.. too cooked it is soft and mushy.. try pushing a billiard ball with over-cooked spaghetti (heck, it won’t even hold a straight form to push with).. somewhere in the middle, the spaghetti is both flexible and substantive.. you push the billiard ball and it yeilds (bends) as it stores energy, then, as the billiard ball begins to move (breaks the grip of inertia) the stored energy in the “bend” adds to the pushing force applied to the BB and you have a Taiji effect..
Add to all of this the “intention” of the player, the refinement of one’s life-forces (Qi), the faith that there is value in the Art itself, the internalized principles and applications of the form from dedication and practice.. and, you have Taiji with flavor and gusto.. it can hurt, it can heal.. it is Yin AND Yang.. soft AND hard.. even the extremes need balance to be effective..
Be well..
Tai Chi Bob, rockin’ the correctamundo. 