A bit of a troll post(esp. the title :D), I know, but I was just curious how many taiji guys out there can really fight who don’t have previous martial arts experience? Seems like most taiji people I know of teach it as a dance or a supplement or part of something else(a larger school curriculum).
Greetings..
I have over 15 years in traditional Martial Arts (Karate, Kung-Fu, Aikido, etc…) and the last 15 years in Taiji.. i have found Taiji to be sufficient for all my combat purposes (and at my school that is a bunch).. do not mistake Taiji “forms” for Taiji principles.. Taiji principles will carry the day in combat, Taiji “forms” might get your a$$ handed to you on a platter.. yet, the principles are internalized through the forms.. odd, huh?
Speaking of “dance”.. whenever your training has led you to the place where combat seems like a “dance”, where you reach a level of pure enjoyment from the movements, where your opponent seems more like a willing dance partner.. then, you can finally see the beauty in the Art..
Be well…
Interestingly enough, in over 25 years, I have NEVER met someone that does Taijiquan that can use it that does not also do another martial art…and did not come to Taijiquan from another martial art.
You’ve probably never met anyone who didnt crawl before they walked either.
:eek:
Is trad taiji effective?
jesus christ, YES!!
If you’ve only seen forms or dances, or gentle push hands, then you haven’t seen trad. taiji.
Trained properly it’s got the same methods as any other effective MA. ie. two person drills, bag/pad work, sparring (yes it’s heavy) and strength training and conditioning methods.
It’s about neutralising the attack, hitting the opponent and moving in to finish them off with strikes/throwing/taking down/locking/pulling of balance/pushing to the floor/all of the above/loads of other cool/nasty stuff too.
In short, if the training is hard enough to be realistic, the principles and the freedom contained within them are great.
I’ve come to taiji after about 4 years cumulative experience in other arts. Everything I previously knew has been dropped in favour of what I’m being taught now.
Greetings..
However unfortunate it may be, if we had prior experience in other martial arts it is almost impossible to remove those years of training and dedication.. yet, i, and others of similar persuasion are willing to discount former teachings for newer insights..
GLW: what is the point you insist upon? is it your contention that Taiji alone is ineffective? how would you know? as you have stated, “I have NEVER met someone that does Taijiquan that can use it that does not also do another martial art…and did not come to Taijiquan from another martial art.” As if to suggest that it must be the other martial arts that add validity to Taiji.. and, i never met a race-car driver that didn’t drive another car before racing.. most people evolve into Taiji (to their detriment) others, more fortunate, start there…
Do you suggest that you have sufficient knowledge and experience to assert Taiji’s ineffectiveness? What of those that you haven’t met?.. is it not possible to rely solely Taiji regardless of prior training? I will gladly introduce you to students i have trained with that had no prior experience and are, today, competent martial artists..
Mostly, what i sense is frustration in many of those that discount Taiji and the internal arts.. people who selectively judge according to their particular experiences and training histories.. they simply cannot acquiesce that such a seemingly docile discipline could possibly challenge their hard work.. oh well, it can..
The only addition, and i don’t see it as an addition myself, in my instruction of Taiji is Qinna.. aside from that Taiji and its principles are sufficient for the vast majority of combat/self-defense purposes..
Be well..
Ive met a couple of taiji practitioners with amazing chin na skills.
Question: How many of you all actually do bag work and drills in your tai chi class? How many do more than gentle push-hands sparring?
I do bagwork at home, trying to keep taiji principles in mind. Don’t get as much sparring in now as I’d like, but thats a different issue for me. I’m doing about 85% taiji, 15% gong fu and wushu now.
Is Trad Taijiquan any good?
NO! Trad Tai Chi is crap on a stick…if by trad you mean hippy
And if by hippy you mean stinking bead wearing, ‘doobie’ smoking, soap avoiding peace niks.
If one more person, at the end of their first class, says:
“well I thought that we would just be moving around slowley and feeling chi and stuff…I didnt think that I would sweat, or that someone would try to brake my arm” .
Well I dont know what i will do but you get the point.
"GLW: what is the point you insist upon? is it your contention that Taiji alone is ineffective? how would you know? as you have stated, “I have NEVER met someone that does Taijiquan that can use it that does not also do another martial art…and did not come to Taijiquan from another martial art.” As if to suggest that it must be the other martial arts that add validity to Taiji.. and, i never met a race-car driver that didn’t drive another car before racing.. most people evolve into Taiji (to their detriment) others, more fortunate, start there… "
I LOVE the defensiveness of the responses on this type of thing 
I happen to LOVE Taijiquan…but I am a realist.
Pick a well known Taijiquan person…
William CC Chen - Boxing first.
Yang Jwing Ming - White Crane and Long Fist,
Liang Shouyu - NUMEROUS styles and shuai Jiao
and I could list many others.
The need for contact and HARD and EXTERNAL training for fighting is never discounted by external stylists…and not by Xingyi or Bagua folks…but I HAVE heard it talked down A LOT by Taijiquan folks.
That is a hallway you HAVE to walk down to have an understanding of force, speed, and power.
However, with those that do other styles as their base, when they get to it, are they doing Taijiquan with an understanding bought from their external training or are they doing their external with some Taijiquan concepts?
I am making no value judgements since I too fall into the category of one that started with an external style…and still do both.
However, it is still amusing to me how irate folks get if you bring this up. If one is secure in what they do, anger or defensiveness is not usually the reaction to a statement or question.
Always stirring up that pot aren’t you GLW.
I’m not sure I know anyone who has had taiji as there first ma and gone on to fight, I’m not saying there isn’t anyone, but I just don’t know of any.
GLW,
It’s an interesting question you pose. I’ll say the same thing I say about Hung Gar. You can not judge a style by the average practitioner but judge it by it’s best. IT’s too easy for the norm to be lazy and not really get it. Especially with Taiji which has the a steep initial learning curve.
That said, I too have never played with a pure taiji player that could fight. I have, however, met Chen Xiao-Wang and I beleive he could fight. You’d have to agree he is about as pure taiji as it gets.
If you go to Chen village, you won’t see a bunch of tree huggers. They are doing hard physical contact using taiji concepts.
You say you love Taiji. Then love it and don’t give the impression you think it’s useless for fighting. The principles are deep and quite effective for combat.
I, for one, find that Hung Gar share many of the principles with a more pragmatic approach. 
I LOVE the way a simple post that is a statement of experience is turned into a value judgement.
Interpret what you wish.
I DO have to qualify that a bit…the Chen style folks _ some of them anyway - may be exceptions.
However, the quality of that skill would have to be measured against…say someone who was equally as good at Shuai Jiao - enough similarities there…
It all boils down to Da Ti shuia Na…and if a person actually trains them.
but many Taijiquan folks often ask for this…even with many of them using a totally sloppy and incorrect translation of Taijiquan.
I think its a really good question. I don’t know if I’m any case to go by (I haven’t ever really tested myself against other schools, and am by any measure a quarter-assed practitioner at best) but basically all I’ve ever studied is my teacher’s own hybridized taiji. He seems to do pretty well by himself, but he’s also got some background in baji, shaolin, xingyi, bagua and (mostly) shuai chiao.
Saying xingyi or bagua are more realistic is like sayin wing chun or karate is more realistic. LOL
Question: How many of you all actually do bag work and drills in your tai chi class? How many do more than gentle push-hands sparring?
We do bag work and drills in class with focus pads.
Our push hands is definitely not gentle.
GLW “It all boils down to Da Ti shuia Na…and if a person actually trains them.” yep.
“but many Taijiquan folks often ask for this…even with many of them using a totally sloppy and incorrect translation of Taijiquan.”
Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here. Would you mind explaining what it is that folks often ask for, and how that’s related to their translation of taijiquan?
By that I am talking about the arrogance that some Taijiquan folks have - they go so far as to translate the characters one at a time
They end up with Supreme Ultimate Fist - and then they take it to the next level and claim this means that Taijiquan is the highest and best martial art.
In actuality, you have to break Taijiquan into Taiji and Quan. While the characters Tai and Ji do have literal translations, when you put them together, they refer to the Supreme Ultimate, the Grand Terminus, the Yin and Yang - in short, the translation of Supreme Ultimate is not in relation to Quan but rather in referring to the Ultimate concept of yin and yang.
A more direct or meaningful translation would be “the Fist style based upon the concepts of Yin and Yang” - a bit wordy but fairly clear.
The ones that I have run into that use the Supreme Ultimate Fist also tend to be the ones that think if you simply practice the form for years you will miraculously be able to use it.
And sitting on one of the arcade games doing motorcycle racing for years will make you an expert on two wheels the very first time you raise the REAL kickstand.
Originally posted by GLW
However, with those that do other styles as their base, when they get to it, are they doing Taijiquan with an understanding bought from their external training or are they doing their external with some Taijiquan concepts?
I am a diligent student of Tai Chi, so when I found this thread, of course I was drawn to it.
TCB has touched on many items that need not be repeated, as he is correct.
However this responce to one of TCB’s posts caught my eye.
One must understand when comparing martial arts, that all martial arts inevitably came from one original concept. And Tai Chi is no exception to that. So in answering if Tai Chi helps the external, or if external helps the Tai Chi. Please take into consideration that Tai Chi was spawned from military fighting methods that soldiers used during war. Some say it perfected them, some say it simply added to them.
Personally, I began training in both wing chun and taijiquan at the sametime. It certainly didn’t take me long to understand Tai Chi was suiting my needs more so than wing chun. I practice everything from forms, to push hands (hard or soft), to bag drills.
GLW
Makes sense, thanks.