Is this a pure Chan form?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Hey SatoriScience,

Yeah, that’s me on youtube that you chatted with, no worries about the vids! It’s not a biggie!

Yeah, I mite have a tangy wushu flavor to my clf (but that’s my personal preference and my “style” lol) but in my opinion, my classmates don’t have wushu flavors in their clf really. Especially the guy in your video that you judged for his grandchamp (broadsword video), he’s never done wushu before in his life, so I wouldn’t say he has any wushu flavor in his forms. How you tell that i have wushu flavor in my clf? Wat do i do that wushu-nize it? Is that a bad thing? Just wonderin, dats all, =)

Cheers Bro

Gwa_Sau_Chap

22

if i may…

i’d say only a small amount of wu-shu flavor there. i thinks its in some of the transitions…like a small pause…but not where CLF people would pause…you got spirit for sure…strong perfomance…

only bits n pieces in my opinion have wu-shu-ist flare…and not a problem.

its a performance…not a fight.

but i watched it again, you do have more intensity found in tcma than you see in wu shu…wushu seems sooo soft and supple…you got the tight strong power going on here.

23

I like that form and performance. You kicked ass. I also agree with the other, slight wushu feel to it, but its a good thing.

I take it you do nanquan right? woudnt mind seeing your nanquan form. You’d probably do it witha CLF flavor :smiley:

you not going to beijing to the wushu champs by any chance are you?

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BUT I THINK I’D HAVE A PROBLEM IF HE ADDED MORE WU SHU TO IT…

A LITTLE LIFE, OR EVEN ACTING IS OK…AS I SAID EARLIER, ITS A PERFORMANCE NOT A FIGHT.

WU SHU HAS ITS PLACE JUST AS DOES tcma. BUT BEING A DISCIPLE OF EITHER WILL SPILL OVER TO THE OTHER STYLE.

25

My only question would be if your sifu had already had a wushu influence in his CLF then he teaches you and your fellow classmates how would you know what influences his kung fu had? You would just think it is CLF.

I competed at Sifu John Leung’s Tournament in WA in 1995 and your school was there. Guys were practicing and doing typical CLF moves then jumping into splits. Maybe things have changed over the years but there was a definate wushu flair back then. Not that there is anything wrong with it but since Wong Ha taught many students in Vancouver you can probably look at the different schools and pick up similarities and differences.

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[QUOTE=CLFNole;808342]My only question would be if your sifu had already had a wushu influence in his CLF then he teaches you and your fellow classmates how would you know what influences his kung fu had? You would just think it is CLF.

I competed at Sifu John Leung’s Tournament in WA in 1995 and your school was there. Guys were practicing and doing typical CLF moves then jumping into splits. Maybe things have changed over the years but there was a definate wushu flair back then. Not that there is anything wrong with it but since Wong Ha taught many students in Vancouver you can probably look at the different schools and pick up similarities and differences.[/QUOTE]

Hi CLFNole,

U make a very good point. Honestly, I can’t say I KNOW for sure that my sifu hasn’t added the influence of wushu into his clf by the time I joined. However, I would say he doesn’t have much wushu influence because his foundation has been CLF for over 20 years and only wushu for like…not even close to that. My sifu’s training in wushu is viewed (by me) as more of a supplement to his CLF training for performance purposes. When he teaches us, all concepts and theories and all techniques and forms are CLF. I’ve never asked him what he took from wushu and added into CLF but I’d imagine it’d be along the lines of solely visual beauty. As well, wen we train with him and when he performs, my sifu doesn’t combine any wushu movements into his forms, other than a flare/flavor (in my opinion cuz i’m jus so amazed by his performances) and that could be wushu influenced, or from his CLF training or his personal flavor from neither sources, i dunno.

However, you are right, back then, our school did add aerials and splits into our forms, that was due to tough competition against wushu practitioners (back then they combined all wushu and non-wushu into “soft style” categories). We have cut that aspect out once they started to separate wushu from traditional soft styles and I’m guessing it’s because of the separation but my sifu didn’t tell me why back then, i just cut it out cuz he said so.

Another great point you made is in regard to the other students of sigung Wong Ha have many differences and similiarities. I’d say more differences than similarities. That I really really can’t explain why, and i’d like to know as well! I believe it’d be too simplistic to just say the cause is of personal preference or flavor. Wat do you think?

Hi Eddie, thank you for your kind words! I actually trained in most of the older compulsory forms however, nanchuan was my area of focus and yes, i used my CLF knowledge to guide my movements in that form. However, I’ve stopped most of my training in wushu since my ACL injury and operation and stuck strictly to CLF. If I had a chance to go to wushu olympics, I’d prefer to represent CLF than wushu. Only because I’ve already redirected my focus and I don’t have enough time to catch up to the standards of the professional wushu athlete’s levels.

Thank you HSK for your compliment as well. You’re right, wen i was training in both CLF and wushu, it was interferring with my training in both fields and I tried to manage both of them without it’s bias on each other. But that ended me with being crappy in both disciplines! lol! A strange blessing came along when I broke my knee and that gave me the answer I was looking for.

Take cares

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Gwa Sau Chop:

I think this can be said for all of us because afterall we follow what our sifu’s teach us. What influences they have in their kung fu we really might not know until later on. In no way was I ever trying to imply that your sifu does not teach CLF concepts or principals, I was just raising the question if there is a slight wushu flair to your forms would you really even know it. Since you have a wushu background it might not seem as much but to people that might have only done southern styles it could appear more noticable.

In any case you guys do your forms well and there is nothing wrong with having a different flavor. Personally I think this is a good thing and something that separates kung fu from karate and TKD where everything looks the same. All CLF shares the same basic seeds and concepts yet we all interpret and demonstrate things a bit different, this is a good thing.

Peace.

28

What I’ve noticed in Van is that adding a little wushu flare is pretty common for many schools who actively compete. Many of the schools who teach trad forms supplement their cirru. with Wushu and thus “spice” their forms up (a little). For instance one of my gung fu sister’s from Jonh Funks mantis school was training with Hung Ga Master Raymond Chueng’s UBC CMA club and learning wushu, not Hung Ga. In Master Chueng’s forms you see pointed straight kicks to the forehead, a little uncommon in trad. hung ga if I am correct?

I understand what gua sow chop is saying about the pre-seperation soft style divisions out in Van and the need to add some flare to compete against wushu.My sifu’s first schools were in Vancouver and he changed our northern forms around for the exact same reason. How ever he left our southern forms untouched, in fact in all of our forms we only play one kick above the waist no spinning kicks etc. We have limited our “flare” to our northern cirriculm to keep our southern forms “pure” (a problematic statement I’m sure but still quite accurate) or atleast as close to the way he learned them as possible.

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Hey Gwa Sau Chap,

Just wondering do you guys mainly practice forms. do you do applications or any sparring? Just curious about your curiculum.

Cheers
-S

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hey stout, im also from the shung ying camp, im gwa sau chap’s sidai…
just to answer your question about our curriculum, we do forms, lion dance and we do do applications and sparring. however we dont put up videos of it cuz we like to keep our “inside stuff” secret hehh…

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“Pure” southern?

[QUOTE=Satori Science;808877]What I’ve noticed in Van is that adding a little wushu flare is pretty common for many schools who actively compete. Many of the schools who teach trad forms supplement their cirru. with Wushu and thus “spice” their forms up (a little). For instance one of my gung fu sister’s from Jonh Funks mantis school was training with Hung Ga Master Raymond Chueng’s UBC CMA club and learning wushu, not Hung Ga. In Master Chueng’s forms you see pointed straight kicks to the forehead, a little uncommon in trad. hung ga if I am correct?

I understand what gua sow chop is saying about the pre-seperation soft style divisions out in Van and the need to add some flare to compete against wushu.My sifu’s first schools were in Vancouver and he changed our northern forms around for the exact same reason. How ever he left our southern forms untouched, in fact in all of our forms we only play one kick above the waist no spinning kicks etc. We have limited our “flare” to our northern cirriculm to keep our southern forms “pure” (a problematic statement I’m sure but still quite accurate) or atleast as close to the way he learned them as possible.[/QUOTE]

SatoriScience,

If you consider the Choy Lee Fut you’re practicing now is southern and that you’re keeping your southern forms “pure”, then you should review the history and style of Choy Lee Fut.

http://www.plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Lei_Fut
http://www.choylayfut.co.za/

Choy Lee Fut is known for the blending together of “southern fist” and “northern kicks” as well as large circular movements. Choy Lee Fut is relatively northern in the spectrum within the family of southern styles.

Dai Mui Fa

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[QUOTE=CLFNole;808670]Gwa Sau Chop:

I think this can be said for all of us because afterall we follow what our sifu’s teach us. What influences they have in their kung fu we really might not know until later on. In no way was I ever trying to imply that your sifu does not teach CLF concepts or principals, I was just raising the question if there is a slight wushu flair to your forms would you really even know it. Since you have a wushu background it might not seem as much but to people that might have only done southern styles it could appear more noticable.[/QUOTE]

Hi CLFNole,

No, no offense taken about my sifu teaching CLF concepts or principals, i kno you were just makin a support for your question, i understand, no worries =)

You’re right, because I’ve wushu background, to me, my clf doesn’t seem very wushu at all, whereas for people without the wushu background, it may seem "wushu"ish. However, if you had a chance to take a look at a video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkzvAe7i2m0 , the performers in there are purely CLF, that’s before my sifu started his wushu training (my sifu’s the guy performing with the big staff…i love that video!! so awesome! hehehehe) and the way they performed the sets, the hands and techniques, the chuan li, or hand technique concepts/theories are very similar to what our school practises today. The changes that our school has made are very minimal considering a time difference of 20+ years. So going back to my original post, the only difference is really just slight wushu changes (head snaps and longer pauses). Of course if you look closely, that video and the video of me have many differences, however, overall, the way the techniques are executed (the path from origin to designated targeted area, aka, chuan li/hand techniques) are very much the same.

I hope I was able to convey my meaning and message in that big mess of what I call my english. It’s difficult to encode my meaning in writing as suppose to that I was able to speak to you, it’d be probably alot more clearer of what I’m trying to say. But I’d like to thank you for your insight because that really made me reflect on my sifu’s teachings and it’s changes in the last 20+ years. And it’s great to see my sigung in that video, man, I miss that guy! Great cook too!

Hey Stout,

Just to clarify what ChoyLeeFat was tryin to say, our curriculum pretty comprises of the “typical” CLF class i guess, never really seen other schools and their class regimens but I assume it’s pretty much the same. We do sparring, we do applications and lion & dragon dances. Its just our club policy that we don’t post up everything that we do. Hope that answers ur question!

Take cares

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[QUOTE=dai mui fa;809511]SatoriScience,

Choy Lee Fut is known for the blending together of “southern fist” and “northern kicks” as well as large circular movements. Choy Lee Fut is relatively northern in the spectrum within the family of southern styles.

Dai Mui Fa[/QUOTE]

Agreed that CLF has a history of blending, it is a blended art,
someday when I am ready I will post some video of our southern sets, manily because when I look at the Lee Koon Hung forms or the Chan family forms they look much more northern to me than ours do. If you watch the Bak Hsing forms that are up on youtube you don’t see any hopping (except the kick and the hop in the hoi jong) no standing on one leg no spinning kicks and almsot no kicks at all (a few exceptions) It may have been because Tam Sam’s back round was Hung Kuen, or because you don’t see as much of northern flare in the Fut San My SIfu also told me that though Tam Fei Pang emphasised on the coordination of punches and kicks in fighting, Lun Chee didn’t beleive in kikcing at all. He said that one should nevr lift the feet off the ground wehn fighting.

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[QUOTE=Satori Science;809577]Agreed that CLF has a history of blending, it is a blended art,
someday when I am ready I will post some video of our southern sets, manily because when I look at the Lee Koon Hung forms or the Chan family forms they look much more northern to me than ours do. If you watch the Bak Hsing forms that are up on youtube you don’t see any hopping (except the kick and the hop in the hoi jong) no standing on one leg no spinning kicks and almsot no kicks at all (a few exceptions) It may have been because Tam Sam’s back round was Hung Kuen, or because you don’t see as much of northern flare in the Fut San My SIfu also told me that though Tam Fei Pang emphasised on the coordination of punches and kicks in fighting, Lun Chee didn’t beleive in kikcing at all. He said that one should nevr lift the feet off the ground wehn fighting.[/QUOTE]

I found on this site saying that Buk Sing has only 3 hand forms. Is this correct according to your knowledge?
http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clftam.htm
and yet, there are 148 hand forms in the Chan family branch and somewhat less from the Hung Sing branch (taken account to previous Grandmasters might have created some new forms).
http://www.clfma.com/au/content/view/22/38/

That might explain why the Chan family and Hung Sing might have more of a northern flare compared to Buk Sing.

If you look at the “sup ji” cross pattern, and “ping kuen” level fist forms on youtube from either the Chan family or Hung Sing branches,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lE4XFjU5w8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04I3DIs07AQ
you’ll find that these forms don’t have much of northern flare in them.

But when look at other forms such as “siu mui fa”,“bak mo kuen”, and the"Baat Gwa kuens"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocr5SPFNQbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpb_YUtuIlw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H2GEBlmzJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxjVQP9Otks
you’d find more single leg, jumps, and kicks in them.

So whether there’s northern flare or not, it has more to do with the particular form you’re doing.

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originally, Hung Sing Fut San Branch only had three forms too. Then it turned into 5 and kept on growing. each branch and school has the duty to evolve the school…hell everyone does it from chan heung, to the shaolin temple…

not ALL of buk sing has northern flavor since not all of buk sing went to ku yu cheung.

forget the fact that buk sing only had three forms, to tell you the truth, i’d rather have only three forms that covered ALL of choy lee fut.

number of forms means nothing, anyone can create a form.

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Satori:

The reason our forms (LKH) and the Chan Family forms looking a like is that our forms primarily come from them albeit slightly different as we are outside of the direct family. The way we play the sets (extension, flow, etc…) though is similar.

Gwa Sau Chop:

I have seen that video before it has the same feel as when I watch my sifu’s school in Hong Kong perform. I was always under the assumption that this was a performance of Wong Ha’s school and not specifically your sifu’s school. It is easy to pick out you sifu as he is a tall guy. Anyhow it is always interesting to watch the old videos and see how things change over time. The same goes with us, Lee Koon Hung’s students in old videos I have did things slightly different then we do today, nothing major but slightly different. This is how kung fu evolves I suppose.

Peace.

37

clfnole,

in your opinion, do you think LKH took what he felt was effective from his peers and blended it into his own fighting method?

Now, i know this question may sound wrong, but its not intended like that in any way. i’d like to know so i never have to ask again. although you guys are geared more toward chan family clf, why do you use the fut san hung sing?

just curious. nothing more.

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Frank:

Yes sifu blended what he learned from many people. He learned early on from Poon Dik (not sure how long as Poon Dik passes away early in sifu’s learning) then from Leung Sai, Chow Bing, Poon Sing, and So Kam Fook (sisuk). He also learned from Leung Siu Kueng (Leung Kwai’s nephew) and possibly others, so yes he blended what he learned.

As far as the hung sing thing I believe it had to do with politics back in the day. There is no question where our stuff comes from.

39

yeah, lee koon hung WAS respected for promoting hung sing by many masters…all who have spoken highly of him.

but thats great that the evidence of LKH’s knowledge gain from many is in his lineage. i had a feeling he absorbed knowledge and you guys are his proof.

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[QUOTE=CLFNole;809646]Gwa Sau Chop:
I was always under the assumption that this was a performance of Wong Ha’s school and not specifically your sifu’s school. [/QUOTE]

Hi CLFNole,

At the time of that performance in the video, my sifu was assisting in sigung’s school because my sifu was there practically every minute of everyday (simple life back then, no school…ahhhh…swweettt, hehehe) so he was very involved with the class curriculum. Not to say that sigung wasn’t teaching either, just my sifu was helping out alot around the club by that time. It wasn’t long after that my sifu started his first club in Delta, BC. However, my point wasn’t that my sifu was teaching alot and stuff back then, I was just trying to point to the fact that despite whether it was my sifu teaching those people or sigung, generally, their hands (Chuan Li) and techniques are very similar to our hands and techniques in our school today. Meaning that our school’s wushu influence is only limited to performance aspects (pauses and head snaps) and not mixed/combined in together with our school’s CLF teachings (forms, chuan li, sparring, etc).

With respect,