Is the VTM being disrespectful?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

The photograph on page 44 (figure 2.14) of the 2 people by a jong in sepai tone, from the movie “Nam Kuen Wong”. That photo was discussed several years ago on the WCML.

The other items I referenced were the following drawings:

Figure 2.9 on page 39.
Figure 2.12 on page 42.
Figure 2.16 on page 46.

I’m sorry you are tired, however my teacher’s name is Ben Der, not Ben Durr.

Originally posted by duende
[B]Thank you Gangsterfist for your kind and thoughtful words.

Planet WC,

The historical pictures you are referring to actually were provided by the Chinese Wing Chun Museum, and the Chinese government after they uncovered the Hung Fa Ting.

I suggest spending less time in the movies. Those of us in the Bay Area are particularly tired of this kind of nonsense being posted by some of the Ken Chung/Ben Durr student camp.

[/B]

82

Victor,

Good idea - I’d have to say no kicks to the knee, though thigh kicks and sweeps are OK. Otherwise the orthopaedic surgeons will be kept very busy with knee reconstructions. Even thrust kicks to the thighs can do knee damage.

I think you have to have gloves if you allow hand contact to the head, lest some do-gooder get you shut down. Kyokushin fight bare handed but only allow kicks to the head, no punches.

I think the idea of this proving the supremacy of a particular lineage is fanciful, but if managed properly it could lead to better relationships between lineages. I’d expect the winners to come from a variety of schools, rather than just one.

Macau? Don’t know exactly what the deal is with that, but in hindsight Asia wouldn’t be a bad idea, it is where the art originated. Certainly the U.S. shouldn’t be an automatic choice.

Some lineages find competition abhorrent and counter to what they say WC is; they probably should consider the benefits of sporting competition to character development. Certain people thrive on it, and a good Sifu will make as many opportunities for growth as possible available to a student .

Never happen, but it’s an interesting idea.

83

First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.---------

Not True, if you check out their different of the body structure,some of these styles have head learn forward, some have the upper body concave in.

Some doesnt follow the Center line characteristics.

It is not that difficult to see the different, if the spine and head connection is different, the power issuing must be different. thus, even the using the same hand shapes. it is a different art.

Those who does understand jing identity can trace Jing DNA easily. Based on spine/ head connection or the use of the 3 yings/3yang medirians models as observation vectors. Simple as that.

A lot of the circling motions in wing chun look similar to crane techniques, along with some elbow techniques. A lot of finger strikes and palm chops look similar to snake boxing. Kicks and some foot work look similar to southern mantis style. ---------

It is not about a single movemen, it is every style has a specific rules on how to handle body structure, jing, and application preference based on
the specialily of body structure and jing identity.

Just by look at a chi sau or SLT picture one can “see” if other art is mix in it or not. For example, if one doesnt address certain aspect of structure on how to work with the “wholeness” of power , by default, generally, one will move to a wider stance to do SLT . because one feel one got power by exanding one’s based one thought that is the way, thus, lots of time, shao lin or hung gar stances were used. what the treat of of going this path is wck no longer be compact. but loosen up the gap between legs for grapper to take advantage of. thus people who practice slt in wide stance, due to the habit, generally, have a tendency of being vonuable to the grapper take down.

I shift this to under the WCK Jing identity topic for technical comparison a step two on looking into wck connection technically.

84

Re: When lacking facts, ad hominem?

Originally posted by planetwc
[B]Since when are all you folks experts on Cho ga Wing Chun?

[/B]

David, they dont even know the basic :smiley:

85

Hi David,

We must agree to disagree on this point.

Thats ok! We are all adults. jr

Most White Crane people very openly acknowledge the role White Crane played in the development of Okanawin and Japanese arts. However, one is hard pressed to find White Crane people who will make the same claim of White Crane being the roots of Wing Chun.

You should purchase Shaolin White Crane by Yang Jwing Ming as one source for Zong He crane info.. Granted its not the Bak Hok Weng Chun version but a good refernce! jr

Hmmm ?? Which one of the more than 80 sets in particular??

Well, lets start with the first one: San Chin (aka The vibration set). Read Yang’s book for more info.. The same goes for Mantis Som Bo Gin. Its main point would certainly be about gathering and releasing energy. jr

It is well documented that the White Crane sets were designed to teach application. The second half of the forms represent the “counters” to applications found in the first half. This holds true for both the empty hand and weapons forms.

Doesn’t make sense and if it was true that would make Crane a Technique based art. I look at it a bit different and some of my Crane friends also tell me the same thing. Crane is not technique based or forms that teach application. Crane sets teach you how to issue body force (Ging). jr

Really? Most say that SLT, CK, BJ are an “encyclopedia” of techniques or an expression of the concepts and priciples of which WC is based. Interesting.

This is true! No argument here but to me its more than that. Lets take SLT/CK/BJ as examples. SLT is our root. Not only is it an encyclopedia but it the longest force in WC. Most of its skills send power to the longest point which is the fist. So, thats basic ging numero uno. Next we have Chum Kiu which build on the SLT. Besides the normal stuff we can clearly see that CK cultivates the next stage of Ging development which would be medium or elbow Ging. Lots of turning/torquing Lan Sao’s etc. etc.. So, thats Ging numero doce. Finally we have Biu Jee. Biu Jee brings you to the last stage of body powering (among the other normally discussed stuff). BJ brings us close and personal with extra sharp close quater Ging. Get what I am driving at??? jr

Are Ging patterns the focus of Leung Jan Wing Chun forms?

One of the main focus points. jr

Chu Ga Tong Long also claims their art was founded by a female, Leow Fah Chih Koo and surprise she was a Shaolin monk escaping from the burning southern temple. So just because both have female heroines, doesn’t point to any definitive link.

We have all heard this type of story before but the fact is; Before Lau Sui began using this name there was no Royal (Chu) Family Mantis and my old Mantis sifu, who is living/researching in China for the last two years, also states that Elder Chu Gar people (behind closed doors) all acknowledge Jook Lum as the original South Mantis. jr

Only our Shaolin ancestors know.

This is where you need to do some research. We all have a root. No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect. The Wing Chunners that believe Crane is the root state this or that to show connections etc.. The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory. How else do you expect people to recieve your theory???

Gotta walk!

See ya,

86

First of all…has anyone, who has put so much time and effort into this particular thread seen improvement in their WC from posting on it or reading it? Doubt it, your WC wont improve because you KNOW you are right and feel you should be heard regarding history. Mind you if you get off your HIGH HORSE and starting working your real WC horse you might get much further in your TRUE knowledge of WC.
Evolution touches everything. WC is not exempt. It has roots, but so do we as a people. We all, as the human race, have similarities but we all have differences as well. Is there anything useful for me to find out that my mother or father are direct decendents of people who fought in cave #3 and took it over? Does it mean that I am third in line to the throne and therefore am closer than the decendents of cave #4 to being pure and unattainable? Uh NO!
Your WC is YOUR WC. It is a personal walk. Just because your teacher has the original knowledge and is a master doesn’t mean that you will grasp it and / or master it in the same way.
So really who cares if people think the VTM is being disrespectful because they believe in what they believe or some people think they aren’t being disrespectful, or if joe blow has the what they think is the ‘real thing’ or some people dont think that is right? Does what those people think/say directly affect you and your personal journey with your WC? Will being able to finally prove that you are right save you from that carjacker or help you live longer? If it doesn’t then why worry about it. If it works for you it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t so find something else that works for you.
I can visualize some of you being the type of person that would watch joe from cubicle 4 in the corner go to the managers office and then talk about it for the next 6 months at the water cooler to anyone who will listen, trying to find the deeper meaning of it all. It is called being a busybody who has nothing better to do than find fault with others and argue about it to make themselves feel better.
All this griping, it is like some of you think you have the ‘power’ of the universe in the palms of your hand and are trying desperately to convince the world and save it from itself, that it is your duty to accomplish this before you can obtain complete ‘enlightenment’. This is like a soap opera (gawd I hate those things) exact same drama unfolding for months and months never culminating with a point.
Funny, I thought this was a Wing Chun forum not a politcal debate forum on free speech and thought. Guess I was wrong because there are 6 pages devoted to this nonsense.
It (this particular thread) is pointless and simply not efficient and therefore has no real WC behind it.

Victor: Here here!!! on the Tourney idea, first good topic and the only one with any ‘real’ WC merit in it that I have read so far in this particular thread.

Rene: 6 pages and only one objection from you to the thread being hijacked and going way off course? Sedatary action like that will have people convinced that you started this to create conflict amongst your brothers and sisters for your entertainment.

Phenix:

It is not about a single movemen, it is every style has a specific rules on how to handle body structure, jing, and application preference based on

Doesn’t that completely contradict you using still pictures (no matter how old) to support your thesis?

In closing, c’mon guys and gals (notice the gals didn’t partake in this nonsense except me of course lol. Actually though there are some definate names of regular posters missing from all the 6 pages of this thread, coincidence, I think not, seems to me that they are always the ones who have the most to offer to people really wanting to improve thier WC, and never bother with this kind of nonsense) lets celebrate the differences and similarities instead of constantly bickering about them. Instead of taking 10 deep breaths when you feel the need to take the bait, do 10 SLT’s. Bet you will be calmer and no longer feel the need to feed in the frenzy.

Vicky

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  1. The WCML is now known as the WCKML, and interestingly enough, Terence, Zopa, Hendrik, Robert, Joy, Bob M., Andrew N., Jim R., and no longer members (though of course, they, like anyone else are welcome back any time). Unfortunately, this might cause the x-files wannabes to have to search desperately for new conspiracy theories. Watching FOX network or Jerry Springer might help.

  2. Tournaments are fun, but Vanderlais Silva or Kazushi Sakuraba could enter and likely beat the everlovin’ shnot out of any WCK person who enters, but that would not mean they had better, truer, more historic WCK, just that they were better fighters. Method and attainment are involved but ultimately (no pun intended to poster or promotion) separate things.

  3. While my siblings can be entertaining, threads like this are an expensive price to pay for a little song and dance. I started the thread because I was frustrated at the apparent double standard that caused me (and others) to be trolled whenever we tried to share a point of view that differed from a small army of passionate posters. However, I’m not sure what at this point will achieve a betterment of the situation.

88

Listen Rene,

You started this thread within hours of your last “proof of shaolin wing chun” thread got deleted.

I have yet to see any threads like that or this current one of yours being posted by any of my HFY brothers. We have even pretty much left your “analysing shaolin wing chun” thread alone.

NO, don’t try to shrug this off on us. YOU brought this on yourself because of YOUR imature behavior.

I suggest that you delete this thread, so we can all move on.

89

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]
This is where you need to do some research. We all have a root. No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect.

The Wing Chunners that believe Crane is the root state this or that to show connections etc..

The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory.

How else do you expect people to recieve your theory???

[/B]

Jim,

I Agree,

get technical.

The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory.

90

Originally posted by WCis4me
[B].

Phenix:

Doesn’t that completely contradict you using still pictures (no matter how old) to support your thesis?

Vicky [/B]

Nope, connect 3 well purpose still pictures from 3 diferent people, there lay suttle subject what one cannot “see”.

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Hi Jim,

“You should purchase Shaolin White Crane by Yang Jwing Ming as one source for Zong He crane info.. Granted its not the Bak Hok Weng Chun version but a good refernce!” - jr

Don’t see the relevence. The original point is that White Crane has direct and documented influence on the creation of Okinawan and Japanese arts. The same does not hold true for White Crane influence on the creation of Wing Chun. Again, let’s just agree to disagree on this point.

“Doesn’t make sense and if it was true that would make Crane a Technique based art. I look at it a bit different and some of my Crane friends also tell me the same thing. Crane is not technique based or forms that teach application. Crane sets teach you how to issue body force (Ging).” - jr

Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to you but it is true! Just because the forms are based on technique does not mean the whole system is. You can look at it any way you want to, that won’t change the way the forms were designed.

“This is true! No argument here but to me its more than that.”- jr

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but let’s not discuss our opinions as fact.

“One of the main focus points.” - jr

So ging patterns are one of the main focus points not what the forms are based on! That is quite a difference from your original staement. Thank you for your honesty.

"We have all heard this type of story before but the fact is … " - jr

The story referenced was only to highlight the fact that many different systems have female heroines in their creation stories. So a simple connection in that manner is not necessarily strong connection.

“Before Lau Sui … Elder Chu Gar people (behind closed doors) all acknowledge Jook Lum as the original South Mantis.”- jr

Wing Chun has it’s own politics. Discussing others is not something beneficial to anyone.

“No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect.” - jr

The passion you have for our great system is very evident in your words. However, so is the frustration of not knowing “where you come from”. We share in the former not the latter. Thereby, I stand by my original answer to your original question.

Thanks for the discussion.

-David

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Vicky: Thanks for the endorsement.

Andrew Nerlich:

Gloves are an absolute must - for the reasons you gave. I think the low kicks could be done - my students and I spar while wearing shin pads (optional)…but we also wear foam knee pads under our pants and heavy-duty plastic knee pads on the outside of the pants A little bulky…

but the knees are protected in this manner to a great extent. (Would hate to take low kicks away from a wing chun fighter !)

As to the location - you’re right - the United States shouldn’t be a given…

True…it wouldn’t necessarily prove that one style is superior to the others - but might go a long way toward calming down some folks who think that their style is “naturally” the best - if they didn’t win…or worse yet…if all their fighters lost in the first round of competition. Think about it.

Now, here’s a bigger question - not necessarily directed at yourself:

WHY IS SUCH AN IDEA SO DEAD IN THE WATER ???

There are so many wing chun people who think they’re above it all - hiding behind the EXCUSE that the system is “too deadly”…“it’s not made for tournaments”…“it goes against our principles”…“our ancestors wouldn’t approve”…

HOGWASH !

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There is a pretty well established MMA circuit these days, with small events dotted all over North America. If someone really had so fancy keen a system, it would be a simple matter (and priceless publicity) to enter King of the Cage, TKO, Superbrawl, IFC, WEC, RITC, Extreme, or one of countless events and decimate a few opponents on the way to UFC gold.

Every art has super secret deadly techniques (bjj can bite your ear, wrestling can chin you in the eye, boxing can smash you in the base of the skull, etc.), but timing, accuracy, striking power, etc. are rule-less. Heck, Vitor Belfort just stopped Randy Couture in 40 seconds or so with a single Biu Jee to the eye in the UFC. Go crazy.

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Rene:

Walnuts…!!!

I think you’re changing the subject…The UFC, PRIDE, etc…has nothing to do with what I’m proposing.

Two separate issues entirely.

Listen…Rene…and you other folks…

What I’m suggesting would not only be a way of perhaps helping to bring these forum discussions back down to earth…(It would be difficult to claim “superiority” every other day after all your fighters just got a whoopin’)…

But might also build some hands-on goodwill and mutual respect between lineages that doesn’t really exist right now.

Did anyone notice the mutual respect and hand-shaking going on between the two teams at the conclusion of the Superbowl ?

As well as an ongoing (annual) opportunity to share principles, training methods, and techniques that, in the end - might produce BETTER wing chun practitoners…

Competition (when done right) almost always breeds a higher LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE.

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Originally posted by Phenix
[B]First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.---------

Not True, if you check out their different of the body structure,some of these styles have head learn forward, some have the upper body concave in.

[/B]

Sure they do, depends on which wing chun lineage you look at too. Look at Augustine Fong, his stance ever so slightly back weighted. He is from YM lineage as well as I am. My triangle footwork is always 50/50, so we are trained to never back, or forward weigh yourself. Also you will notice some slightly curve the spine back, to perhaps maybe better defend the body against blows to the abdomen.

Also in the Pao Fa Lien pictures I have seen in books their foot work is different shifting weight from one side to another.

However, this argument is old and tiresome and I have had nothing but bad experiences. Why can’t us wing chun’ners just go back to arguing with the BJJ guys on how ground fighitng sucks?

Lineage doesn’t mean a **** thing, train hard and you will be good at wing chun.

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Hello David,

Don’t see the relevence.

Perhaps I should have explained myself better. jr

The original point is that White Crane has direct and documented influence on the creation of Okinawan and Japanese arts. The same does not hold true for White Crane influence on the creation of Wing Chun.

This is why I suggested you puchasedd Yang’s book. You asked for ducumentation or some Crane people claiming influence on the creation and that would be one source. jr

Again, let’s just agree to disagree on this point.

Its Ok to agree to disagree but I think we just might be not understanding each other. Hopefully that helps. jr

Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to you but it is true! Just because the forms are based on technique does not mean the whole system is. You can look at it any way you want to, that won’t change the way the forms were designed.

Well, I am not looking at it any way I want to but the way my Crane friends tell me to look at it. Which is probally the reason you look at it the way you do. Both can be right. jr

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but let’s not discuss our opinions as fact.

Once again. My thoughts are based on the info. I discuss/read about from Crane and not my own opinion. jr

So ging patterns are one of the main focus points not what the forms are based on! That is quite a difference from your original staement. Thank you for your honesty.

David, all motions, forms, sets, whatever have numerous focal points. Dictionary, Concepts, Principles, Ging Patters, etc. etc. can all be and are all part of ones Kung Fu. Some may stress certain things more than others and vise versa. Certainly there are only so many ways a human body can issue and recieve force thru ones method/art. Part of any Kung Fu is the focus of Developing the body to send/recieve power. Yes, in my art Ging patterns are built right into the art and if you can see the progression of WC forms the body ging is being cultivating in three different stage of torque. Are they soley Ging patterns? No but indeed a core element. Even Wong Nim Yi sifu states in a flyer of his that SLT/CK/BJ are different fighting ranges of development. So, perhaps I should have been more clear and not just stated one thing. jr

The passion you have for our great system is very evident in your words.

I think we all love what we do! Respect to WCK!

However, so is the frustration of not knowing “where you come from”.

I cant agree with you on this. The historical story we, and most others, preserve is all to in-tune with the stylistic similarities of our ancestors. I would hope that in the future some new info. will surface and it wont only be the Shaolin Ancestors only knowing the roots. jr

We share in the former not the latter. Thereby, I stand by my original answer to your original question.

We agree to disagree. jr

Thanks for the discussion.

Dito. jr

Regards,

97

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]

Sure they do, depends on which wing chun lineage you look at too. Look at …Also in the Pao Fa Lien pictures I have seen in books their foot work is different shifting weight from one side to another.

However, this argument is old and tiresome and I have had nothing but bad experiences. Why can’t us wing chun’ners just go back to arguing with the BJJ guys on how ground fighitng sucks?

Lineage doesn’t mean a **** thing, train hard and you will be good at wing chun. [/B]

You have a great point on WCK.
That’s why I post before if your have notice. EVIDENCE before 1960. And preferebelly, EVIDENT close to 1900’s.

Some of Pao Fa Lien today claim what was taught by Mok Pui On is not proper. and Even in my own Cho family, Things get mix up…

So, we have to look at before 1960 when GM Yip Man’s generation was still alive.

Lineage can mean alots of thing and can mean nothing. Depend on how much one can tap into the Lineage Power which is the core of the art.

Train hard is must but people can train hard but still without a good technical platform. A more then 10 years kung fu man can easily be knocked out by younger Thai Boxer in the 70’s and taken down by Grapper today.

Doesnt mean the Kung Fu man doesnt train hard?

Just for fun of discussion, since you bring up the weighting… leaning forward backward…ect..

what is your view on how to join or link or alignt your head with your spine? See spine is the link of the body. Head is the director. This is fundametal. If we dont address this, the body might be in an unknown state of linking. We better make sure we know how to link or align our own body before we go tell anything to BJJ. :smiley:

Now another item for the Shao Lin Wing Chun theoritis need to support tp adress beside :
the earlier pictures ,
the writing from other styles ,
is the alignment of Head and Spine.

Just somethought.

98

Victor, my post was agreeing with you.

99

Hendrick,

You seem to have a lot of knowledge of the history of kung fu. I am not arguing that your points are not valid. History is indeed interesting and important in some ways. It does preserve the art, and also keeps the names of the people who dedicated their lives to it and made it possible for us to train in it today. Sometimes your posts are a bit hard to follow at first so I am guessing that english is not your first language, and thats okay with me english is a hard language to learn. So there might be a bit of a communication barrier between you and some of the other posters. But, why dwell in the past? Why trace wing chun back to shaolin? Does it change wing chun? Will it change your style and make it better or worse? The answer is no. However, it seems everything I love is always somewhat ruined by human nature, even kung fu.

/unsubscribe to the thread.

100

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]Hendrick,

But, why dwell in the past?
Why trace wing chun back to shaolin?
Does it change wing chun?
Will it change your style and make it better or worse? The answer is no. However, it seems everything I love is always somewhat ruined by human nature, even kung fu.

/unsubscribe to the thread. [/B]

You are right, There are communication barrier.
For example, when I talked about the anatomy of Shark some think I am talking about a small fish in the bow. and trying to comment on my SLT. obviously he never see shark before.

May be because we don’t even know how to align our spine and head in the set call the Little Training Head? :smiley:

and a different way of head and spine alignment doesnt called Little Traininng Head anymore? :smiley:

Dont you want to find out how the head of the Little Training Head need to be place? :smiley: