Re: Hendriks logic ! LOL!
Cango,
Show your pictures to support your thesis.
Dont side track. 
Here’s more Santo proof!
Hendrick logic at work!
http://www.loongying.co.uk/lineage.html
http://www.maui.net/~mantis/characteristics.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9803/palmmove.gif
Need I post more pics of different systems that share some Wing chun postures?
Chango
Chango, desertwingchun2,
Thank you for your all personal opinions.
See, A picture worth a thousand words. Two worth even more.
And the White Crane’s support worth even much more.
If the WCK people in this forum judge that I am wrong that is fine.
But,
I hope you show pictures older then 1970 to support your thesis.
Otherwise, the reader in this forum is going to wonder about your claims. Attacking me is not equal to show your pictures …
I let the forum make the judgement.
Originally posted by desertwingchun2
[B]“As who is the inheritor… GM… I dont need those title. You want it take it.” - Hendrick
I bet you’d have a better response if someone print one in a book for you, huh?? What a tool !!!
-David [/B]
I have lots of high tech world wide micro electronics Patterns. May be I should give you one so that you can showing off and feel great?
no doubts!
Hendrick,
I do not doubt that your version of Wing chun may have White crane in it or maybe influenced by White crane. But you have to realize your speaking for all WCK has many holes in it. I know you have extremely long SLT but nothing else. That does not mean that everything else came from your SLT. You have to look outside of your little “fish bowl” thinking.
If your version of WCK is deficient of something this does not mean it does not exist somewhere else in WCK. It also does not lead one to believe that these items that you are deficient of came from your particular way of thinking.
Your status can be brought to issue if you are not considered to be an authority by your teacher or your peers. If your kung fu family has does not recognize you as being fit to represent them. We can only say that what you are doing is your version and you simply cannot represent the Cho Gar family. I can only say that from what I gather your position is not one of the Cho Gar family but only yours personally. that is fine but don’t pull your BS of acting like you are some type of authority in the public eye.
Chango
Re: A clear as it gets!
Originally posted by Chango
[B]<Phenix wrote> Do you realized that Rene, Victor, anerlich, Joy, and others doesnt practiced the same lineage of WCK?
The gents listed seem to have an unhealthy attraction to any thread concerning Shaolin/Wing chun connection. a few of them cannot seem to leave any thread alone that has a HFY or CS member on it. I mean a couple of them even hi jacked a thread discussing someone’s positive experience with GM Hoffman. It is very clear that some personal issues are there. I hope they find resolve just not on this forum. I think we all have grown tired of these Jr high school anticks. I know I have. :rolleyes: [/B]
Just like duende, canglong, train and chango. Fascinating!
Re: no doubts!
Chango,
Pictures and written support from other 350 years old existing style please.
Reasoning cannot replace pictures of support before 1970’s.
is your arse that sore??
“May be I should give you one so that you can showing off and feel great?” - hendrick
Already feel great and no need to show off.
So keep whatever pattern you have and enjoy your high tech show off feel great.
BTW, next time you show off dont claim to be lineage holder when you’re not. That’s not too high tech for you is it, Tool?
-David
Thank you duede and Sifu Chango again for all that info. Coming from the Yip man lineage, I almost understood what Hendiik was saying but after youguys showed me some pics of the Mantis and the Dragon styles, it makes more sense to look more into a system rather than looking at these pics heheheheh. Dang!! After looking at those pics and then i went to yahoo and did a search myself, if i just looked at pics, then WCK is derived from all of the martail arts becuase almost everysystem has something similar to WCK but I know now that’s BS 
I agree that you have to look INTO it a lot more. Thanks again guys!!!
“If the WCK people in this forum judge that I am wrong that is fine.” - hendrick
What about the White Crane people? Why do they lay claim to creating Japanese arts and not Wing Chun? The White Crane people know more of their history than you. Unless you are now - via one of your high tech patterns - a lineage holder in the White Crane family as well …
Come on, show off more than photos and share which families of White Crane gave you so much inside info? Oh yea you already said you got the info from “rare” books … Ego is a biznitch aint it?
- David
playing your game!
Hendrick,
First of all you are not going to prove anything from a simple picture of a body shape! but if I use your logic I can use this picture of a touch up from a painting on the Northern temples wall. (that’s before 1970 LOL)
http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-kung-fu-3.htm
—The monk on the right is going to use a verticle punch ROFLOL!
http://www.shaolinwolf.com/Imagesabcd/blackbeltcoversifu.jpg
—Looks like Pak Dar to me! LOL!
http://www.shaolinwolf.com/Imagesabcd/closefighting1.jpg
— I’m not sure what the date was on this one but it looks like a bong sau goin on there! ROFLOL!
Hendrick are you finished wasting our time with this picture business? you cannot draw conclusions from pictures alone.
Chango
1.The old water palm/punch and othere Fukien pics are indeed interesting Hendrik… and also seems to show the centerline principle.
2.Dragon style and tong long/southern mantis show some common close quarters southern themes but do not show
the body structures (knees, pelvis, chest) close to wing chun.
Thesis #1 (Hendrik) seems closer to using a rifle than #2(the VTM
phalanx) which uses a scatter gun.
Hendrik-best to ignore VTM posts-why mud wrestle with zealots.
Best to share your insights without engaging the group think folks. You give them more attention than is necessary.
joy chaudhuri
(gladly doing one of the “popular wing chun” styles)
Do people think that people are making stories up about people and history to serve the self-interest of certain people? Come on people!
The center line principle is so very basic. We’re talking about a very very old idea there.
Photographs can be taken of an object in motion, and make it appear to be at rest. Plus, there’s the often the factor of the photographer, e.g. “I can’t see your face, lower your hands.” “Make it look more exciting!” These examples are based upon real experiences.
The mixing of ideas, the influence of one thing on another, this always occurs, and always has. The effect is particularly pronounced when something has no means of self-standardization.
I personally hope that everyone’s Wing Chun serves them well.
There have been, throughout history, some people who are now (and perhaps were then) considered very wise, who could make a fine analogy, or construct a sound metaphor on occasion, perhaps condensing a parable down to it’s essence, making it easy to remember and pass along. However, not everyone who can construct a metaphor has substantive wisdom to pass along, and I doubt that any of them used this form of communication 90% of the time. It’s a movie stereotype, some old Sage handing his Disciple what sounds like a bunch of clouds all the time, and then the Disciple goes out into the world and is faced with something, and then the clouds turn into a single piercing ray of sunshine. The respected Old Man’s wisdom saved the day, and the Disciple’s faith was not misplaced. Hooray! Those ideas, as inspiring as they may be, often come from works of fiction.
I figured I’d add that last bit in there since most of the group are hurling very poorly veiled insults. I would prefer to do without all of that, and see a level-headed exchange, or no exchange at all. If the only exchange is “You’re stupid and you suck!” back and forth, over and over, then why are people so eager to waste so much energy and to spoil so much harmony? I can see that at a pre-school.
Hello David,
What about the White Crane people? Why do they lay claim to creating Japanese arts and not Wing Chun?
The lay claim to both! White Crane and its San Chin set show a clear connection to the Okinawan arts and then of course the Japanese which stem from the Okinawan’s. Then you can also see that they, the White Crane people, list Wing Chun as a relative of their art.
The White Crane people know more of their history than you.
White Crane could very well be the generic MA that gave birth to many south fist. Look at the numerology of their sets as one example. Many of these other south fist arts like Whitebrow, Dragon, Chu Gar etc. are all modern arts if thats a good way to call them. Chu Gar was not named until Lau Sui started teaching and then one of his guys called it Chow Gar. Dragon and Whitebrow masters were all rumored to have visited Chung Yel Chong for training. Go back to the mid 1800’s and try to find those arts. Highly unlikely. Its probally all do to the ammount of training one recieved. Some may have only learned Som Bo and then built their own arts from there. Some may have learned Som Bo and Sup Bot and built from there. Some may have recieved the whole enchillada 3, 18, 108 etc..
I believe that White Crane and Jook Lum may have shared roots and hence the reason both share the same forms sequence/numerology. Also, Jook Lum was from the Lungfoshan area just north of Fukien so the arts were too close (and too similar in many ways) to each other not to some relations.
Just some thoughts!
Gotta walk!
hehe
Okay…Train…You want solutions instead of complaints -
I second the suggestion made by iblis:
2-3 people who hold phd’s in history and anthropology and who do NOT practice martial arts. Fluency in Chinese would be mandatory.
Excellent idea !
Hello Hendrik,
Thanks for the pictures! I believe the third one, with the full side body turn and cutting elbow, looks very similar to this attachment. Except we are using the WC engine/model to drive it.
See ya,
May I please ask everyone to stop trolling and hijacking this thread. While it seems standard practice that anytime a legitimate thread is established, certain parties will jump in and begin personally insulting people to draw attention away from it, I would ask that they be left to the moderators and the rest of us get on with the topic at hand:
Why is it okay to challenge the Ng Mui -> Wing Chun connection, but not the Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?
As to the idea of a neutral third party, I fully endorse this, but do not believe either myself or the VTM should be involved in any way. Too much baggage.
(P.S. I have as much a political connection to Hendrik as the VTM does (probably less at it’s possible they’re working together to stir up controversey and attention for each other like Timberlake and Janet Jackson). I give Hendrik a harder time than the VTM, thusfar he is simply more gracious in response).
Why is it okay to challenge the Ng Mui -> Wing Chun connection, but not the Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?
I think that it IS okay. It’s being done all the time. Either viewpoint is being challenged. When the Ng Mui->Wing Chun connection is challenged, there is an understandable uproar, and when the Shaolin->Wing Chun connection is challenged, there is an understandable uproar.
That’s what’s happening these days. We’re soaking in it.
If there’s 3 people in this hypothetical neutral party, and none of them practice martial arts, does that limit the scope of the debate/investigation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it? If so, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Hello Hendrik,
Thanks for the pictures! I believe the third one, with the full side body turn and cutting elbow, looks very similar to this attachment. Except we are using the WC engine/model to drive it.
See ya, [/B]
Jim,
Thanks for the picture.
Yes, indeed with a different enginee as told by our ancestors.
You know, I think we all from Yip Man, YKS, Fung, Yik Kam’s family can have a party for fun to discuss about all of these.
We can all share pictures, Kuen Kuits, the way to issue energy, and even the way to incoorporate other arts…