Is the knowledge of many forms important for you?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

Hello all,

Let exchange some knowledge together.

Normaly if you are new in a shaolin school you start with.

Basic Stance, Wu Bu Chuan, Liang Chan Quan ect

After the first form is Xiao Hong Chuan “normaly”

But then after you learned all of those, not meaning you master it.
But you know how the form works and now you can look to complete those details.

But what i see much then that after they done the basics, they allready learning new form. Without know the first well!

For myself its not important to know many forms.
I gues 3 forms without weapon and 3 with weapon is allready much!

Why 3 with weapon, my idea of that is you have to learn Basic stance ect, but for me Basic weapons are also a must know!

Broad Sword and Stick are for me those basic weapons, then you should take a weapon with interests you most.

Now your opinion.

2

One of the most important aspects of Kung Fu is ‘Bian Hua’ That is Changeability. THe ability to change from one move into another.

If you only practice a few forms you find you will be very stuck with those movements. To Break this you can practice the individual ShouBa of the forms (that is the individual movements) and practice free combining them. ALso you can try more forms.

If you train a great deal, then there are only advantages to training more forms. It makes you very comfortable at changing and gives you such a large repertoire of techniques that you see through the move to the formula behind and no longer need any of the moves at all. Thus you can become formless. You can also become this way by having the style explained to you in very high detail, but such a teacher is rare.

When you learn a new form it unlocks new information about all the older forms you learned. So you will find you progress more quickly generally. Its all about time. If you have a lot of time to dedicate, then I would suggest learning as many as you can get your hands on. However few people have such time, and so it is important to sreamline. In this case I would suggest learning enough for a complete style but to focus on their individual techniques.

In SHaolin the problem for a lot of beginners is having a complete martial art. The problem is that WuBuQuan, LianHuanQuan and XIaoHongQuan are not enough. THey don’t contain all the techniques you need. Neither WuBuQuan or LianHuanQuan are old Shaolin forms, they are later additions specifically for beginners. XiaoHongQuan is a complete stlyle if you learn all its roads (4 forms). It can work in combination with Pao Quan very well as well. However it is not so well combined with TongBei, Luohan, Jingang, etc.

No one has yet organised Shaolin into a Logical syllabus. So at the moment, in order to learn the style well, you really do have to practice a lot of forms. Or have an extremely good teacher who teaches you all the principles well.

IMPORTANCE

So, is it important to have the knowledge of many forms? No, it is important to have the vast knowledge of your system of Wushu. This may be just a few moves or even a few principles, well applied. However in Shaolins case, its gonna take quite a few forms.

It goes without saying that a form should be well learned before moving on, but not to the point of stagnation. It is difficult to know when to move on. But you will know yourself. If you get to a point where progress is slow, move on.

3

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1192445]You can also become this way by having the style explained to you in very high detail, but such a teacher is rare.[/QUOTE]

So true. The majority of people in Shaolin now just do sanda for the fighting side, and maybe have some hypothetical applications to the movements of their traditional sets. But those who really know and teach the concepts and principles of the system are rare, and one must really know how to seek them out. Ironically, most of them aren’t the monks, who rather fall in the former category. For many people, an expensive trip to Shaolin these days is a big disappointment.

In response to this topic, I agree 100% with RDH. That’s my understanding as well and how I train. I personally know many forms and can use them freely, but “specialize” in one or two.

4

what forms to learn?

in addition to what Ren and LFJ said, there’s a most important point that must be said:

in Shaolin kung fu the styles and their forms are many. here, how many and which forms to learn depends on what one wants to gain via Shaolin kung fu. some forms seem mandatory and most optional.

the mandatory foundational form: as a basic form, Wubu quan, for example, which is not really a form, but just a modern badly made-up set of some steps, is quite useless since all the basics of Wu Bu (5 stances) quan is taught in Xiao Hong quan in a well-developed systematic manner. Xiao Hong quan itself is believed to be almost mandatory to learn. this is because it contains the foundationals and spirit of Shaolin kung fu in the most condensed and most effective manner. other forms are not as clear, effective, and concise as Xiao Hong quan in this aspect.

optional forms: now you must determine what skills you need to learn: mostly, needing to develop a special type of power automatically determines which styles should be trained. for example, the need to develop defensive skills makes Qi Xing quan necessary to learn. this has made Qi Xing quan one of the most trained forms in Shaolin temple. as another example, it is said that a Shaolin kung fu practitioner must develop 4 types of power: pushing, explosive, short-range explosive (inch), and penetrating power. one won’t master any sort of the these powers via Xiao Hong quan; more sophisticated forms are needed to be learned here. for example, Pao quan specifically develops explosive power, TaiZu Chang quan YiLu is pushing-explosive, Rou quan is mostly pushing, Mantis is mostly penetrative, tiger is pushing-penetrative, etc. so is for most other skills. so, the needs and interests of the practitioner determine which forms are necessary and which not to be developed. In general, since the number of skills to be learned for a practitioner are not so small, the number of the forms to learn goes usually beyond 30. however, most specific styles which are complete systems themselves have about 8~12 forms and after mastering them one becomes a true master of the style; but the complex system Shaolin quan is vaster than those single styles.

5

18 weapons skills

about the weapon forms, one can, sufficiently and without the need to another weapon, restrict himself to staff. the reason for this vast number of weapon forms in Shaolin kung fu is the intent of being able to use almost anything as weapon. this skill won’t be achieved with one, two, or three weapons. this may be why they say 18 weapons, while the number of weapons goes pretty beyond hundreds. because learning a such number of different weapons of the different categories: hard & soft, short & medium & long, edged & non-edged, would definitely develop the ability of using almost everything usable as weapon; and there almost won’t be any need to learn other weapons specifically. finally, it depends on you to whether need this ability or not.

6

Not for me. It is about the principles contained within the forms that is more important ultimately.

I’ve learned dozens of forms, some very long and complex, others short and simple.

I personally only maintain a couple of handsets and a few weapons such as staff(gwun), single broadsword(dao), wu dip do(butterfly knives) an gim(straight sword).

I occasionally reach into the way back machine and pull something old just to dust it off and give the rust a shake, but having many forms is not of great importance, especially in context to the actuality of fighting.

7

My Sigung once said that “Just because you don’t remember a form you learnt, doesn’t mean your body doesn’t still know it.”
Knowing a lot of forms might not be so important, but learning a lot of forms is very useful for the reasons RDH mentioned.
Even if, like David, you only keep up on a few of them, your body has still learned new ways to move/combine techniques from the forms you’ve ‘forgotten.’

8

I used to know dozens of forms.

When I was younger, I had the entire BSL system. It was over 50 forms. I’ve let all those go. A few of the more basic ones are still hardwired into me and I can pull them back up with a little effort. I remember many of the weapon techniques, but couldn’t recite the entire form. That’s when I had a lot more time to focus on physical training.

Nowadays, I only focus on a few forms. I started a thread on that two years ago. I haven’t updated that in a year. At this time in my life, I’m content to focus on a few fundamental Shaolin forms. I don’t need to know many, but I’m glad that I did once, because it gives me a stronger foundation and more diversity. If I was presented with a new form, I would certainly explore it, but my coach now wants me to work on what I have, and I’m in total agreement.

9

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1192472]My Sigung once said that “Just because you don’t remember a form you learnt, doesn’t mean your body doesn’t still know it.”
Knowing a lot of forms might not be so important, but learning a lot of forms is very useful for the reasons RDH mentioned.
Even if, like David, you only keep up on a few of them, your body has still learned new ways to move/combine techniques from the forms you’ve ‘forgotten.’[/QUOTE]

Well learning many forms is indeed good for progress!
But true that people say here is, that its good for further training experience.

But remember them all or specialized in all of them is impossible.

Like bruce lee once said, I’m more affraid from a guy who punch 100000 times the same punch, then from a guy who knows 100000 techniques.

But allways interesting what people think of such things.

Thx for it!

10

[QUOTE=Hanak;1192500]Well learning many forms is indeed good for progress!
[/QUOTE]

IMO, learning many forms is a big waste of time. I have learned more than 50 forms so I believe I’m qualified to say this.

The best training method is to develop a set of “finish moves”. You then try to use your other moves to set up, create opportunity, and apply your “finish moves”. When you do that, you will find out that you need to design your own combo that fit your own body type. None of those moves that you have learned from your forms are useful for your purpose.

Without developing a set of “finish moves” first, all your training will have no purpose - like a homeless person with no home.

11

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1192506]IMO, learning many forms is a big waste of time.
.[/QUOTE]

In MA many aspects of training Plateau quickly. This is how 20 year olds can become champions. They become equal with their peers at most aspects then physical condition becomes paramount. To stop things becoming stagnated we must change up our training frequently. Time spent on form is never wasted, you are always improving your ability to move and always learning new strategies, new concepts entirely through the diversity of form.

As soon as anything Plateaus time is only needed to maintain it, extra time is wasted. To improve it you need inspiration, new ideas and new experiences. Form is there to inspire and create these new ideas. I am always in the process of learning a new form. It doesn’t matter if you remember every one clearly, what is important is that you allow it to teach you new concepts. You will remember the concepts without having to remember the form.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1192506] I have learned more than 50 forms so I believe I’m qualified to say this.
.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the forms and your attitude towards training them.

No time of any training is wasted if you are learning new things

Its only a waste of time if you allow it to plateau

12

each songshan shaolin form is a complete style with its own lineage.

if u leanr more than 2 ur pushing it

13

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1192469]Not for me. It is about the principles contained within the forms that is more important ultimately.

I’ve learned dozens of forms, some very long and complex, others short and simple.

I personally only maintain a couple of handsets and a few weapons such as staff(gwun), single broadsword(dao), wu dip do(butterfly knives) an gim(straight sword).

I occasionally reach into the way back machine and pull something old just to dust it off and give the rust a shake, but having many forms is not of great importance, especially in context to the actuality of fighting.[/QUOTE]I agree with this.:smiley: :eek:HOLY SH!T! dude, you have a B#TTLOAD of posts, D@MN!:cool::slight_smile:

Gene should give away some free shw@g to the 3 top POSTERS, what do you think?

14

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1192545]
As soon as anything Plateaus time is only needed to maintain it, extra time is wasted. To improve it you need inspiration, new ideas and new experiences. Form is there to inspire and create these new ideas. [/QUOTE]

I think this is a really important point. Learning new movements and sequences triggers some kind of cognitive process that feels quite different from refining what one already knows. There’s that feeling of discovery that come as a new form starts revealing its secrets. Even if some of these aha-moments turn out to have been wrong, it’s invigorating and inspiring.

I read somewhere that learning new movement sequences actually raises performance on cognitive tests, but only temporarily. This was tested. Learning new forms of dance led to a spike in ability at solving logical puzzles.

And I believe, exactly as I think you’re saying, that going back to an old form, after learning something in between, can make your relationship to the old form fresh again.

My approach to open handed forms has changed since I started with staff. Staff has changed how I dig a ditch. Digging has changed my stance training. Stance training has changed my sitting meditation and how I sit at a desk during the day. And that has changed my life.

But all that is only with about 5 or 6 forms depending on how you count. Maybe 3 active at any given time. I’m one of the people with little time who needs to stick to relatively few forms.

About free-combination / bian hua. The simple little staff form I’m working on takes less than a minute at medium speed. But then try learning everything in a mirror-image, and then finding all the different ways to combine and recombine the steps, turns, grips, and power projection aspects it contains, and you’ve got a huge field of possibilities to work with.

15

You have to be very careful to select the forms that you want to learn. If all your forms are on the same level, you may grow fat but you will not grow tall. Going through the elementary school class material multiple times won’t earn yourself a PhD degree.

When your teacher wants to teach you a new form, you should ask, “Why do I need to learn this form for?” If your teacher can’t give you a good reason, don’t learn it.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1192698]You have to be very careful to select the forms that you want to learn. If all your forms are on the same level, you may grow fat but you will not grow tall. Going through the elementary school class material multiple times won’t earn yourself a PhD degree.

When your teacher wants to teach you a new form, you should ask, “Why do I need to learn this form for?” If your teacher can’t give you a good reason, don’t learn it.[/QUOTE]

Exactly I think a style should have maximum 5 or 6 forms. I think even that is pushing it. There are too many things to work on practice and get good at to spend so much time on forms and probably not paying enough attention to detail. I want to do my forms and go on to drills, sparring, strength training, and cardio.

17

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1192698]You have to be very careful to select the forms that you want to learn. If all your forms are on the same level, you may grow fat but you will not grow tall. Going through the elementary school class material multiple times won’t earn yourself a PhD degree.

When your teacher wants to teach you a new form, you should ask, “Why do I need to learn this form for?” If your teacher can’t give you a good reason, don’t learn it.[/QUOTE]

I can agree with this. It has to be pushing something new.

18

It’s so relative

[QUOTE=Bacon;1192700]Exactly I think a style should have maximum 5 or 6 forms.[/QUOTE] That’s not very many weapons. If you practice weapons, forms are more important. And you got to figure at least one from for each weapon. The magnitude and diversity of the Chinese arsenal of weapons is truly one of its greatest treasures. By reducing it down to just 5 or 6, we might as well just practice the Okinawan weapons.

19

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1192759]That’s not very many weapons. If you practice weapons, forms are more important. And you got to figure at least one from for each weapon. The magnitude and diversity of the Chinese arsenal of weapons is truly one of its greatest treasures. By reducing it down to just 5 or 6, we might as well just practice the Okinawan weapons.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I was talking empty hand. For weapons I think one or two forms apiece should do.

20

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1192759]That’s not very many weapons. If you practice weapons, forms are more important. And you got to figure at least one from for each weapon. The magnitude and diversity of the Chinese arsenal of weapons is truly one of its greatest treasures. By reducing it down to just 5 or 6, we might as well just practice the Okinawan weapons.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but if you want to get good at any of them you may want to select a few and stay within that realm. Know what I mean? You can’t learn it all, trying is a waste of your time. Very inefficient. If you really want to learn more, maybe learn weapons that are similar to the other you train with.

It’s like with Physics, you gotta choose a field and just roll with it. Otherwise you just end up a jack of all, master of none. That limits your potential to mediocrity.