Is the knowledge of many forms important for you?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1192759]That’s not very many weapons. If you practice weapons, forms are more important. And you got to figure at least one from for each weapon. The magnitude and diversity of the Chinese arsenal of weapons is truly one of its greatest treasures. By reducing it down to just 5 or 6, we might as well just practice the Okinawan weapons.[/QUOTE]

IMO, it’s better to become good in a few weapons than try to learn a bunch. My personal favorites were the long staff, then the spear. Then the saber. Maybe even better to really know one weapon very well. I never liked the special weapons like 3-section staff, chain whip, rope dart, etc., etc. But if they’re practiced for interest or preservation, then I suppose more is perfectly fine.

With the staff, it’s easy to practice sparring with padded staffs. With many weapons, that’s more difficult to implement.

22

It’s not too hard to get ‘good’ at a weapons form…

…it’s hard to get great at one.

But to get a basic proficiency in a wide array of weapons is a viable strategy too. That’s the foundation of the Shaolin notion of the 18 weapons. If you’ve got 18 weapon forms, assuming they are all diverse enough, you could pick up any inanimate object and go all Jackie Chan on someone. It’s a jack of all trades method. Perhaps I should say ‘Jackie of all trades’…

With open hand fighting, most practitioners lean towards a reductionist curriculum, but for weapons, being competent with a wide range of different weapons can be very useful. And it’s not as hard as it sounds. Once you get the fundamentals of the basic four, then twin weapons and some flexibles, that covers a lot of ground. The rest is just variation.

Weapon sparring with some of the more exotic ones can be challenging because of safety concerns, but there’s always working with live blades, cutting practice and target practice.

23

I think it’s important to be exposed to a wide variety of empty hand forms in a system so you can then settle on the 5 or 6 you really connect with. I agree that you need a working knowledge of at least the 18 classic weapons forms if you’re going to consider yourself a CMA practitioner. Empty hand forms really just help us refine our natural tools so a smaller number is okay, but with weapons, you need the forms to open your eyes to ideas your body wouldn’t naturally produce.

24

I would think that 1 basic, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced empty hand form is more than enough.
Add to that 1 form for every weapon you choose to train with.

25

I guess it really depends on your purpose then. Are you training to:

  1. Just learn how to fight
  2. Say you know Kung Fu
  3. Actually learn a system

It seems to me that a lot of people that comment on this board aren’t really interested in learning a system to carry it on to the next generation. When I started learning Kung Fu, being chosen or allowed to inherit the system seemed like the only goal… and really it’s still what I care about most.

26

[QUOTE=Orion Paximus;1192931]I guess it really depends on your purpose then. Are you training to:

  1. Just learn how to fight
  2. Say you know Kung Fu
  3. Actually learn a system

It seems to me that a lot of people that comment on this board aren’t really interested in learning a system to carry it on to the next generation. When I started learning Kung Fu, being chosen or allowed to inherit the system seemed like the only goal… and really it’s still what I care about most.[/QUOTE]
When a teacher teaches a student, he will ask that student whether he wants to be a fighter on the mat (in the ring), or a teacher who can pass down his linkage. The training pathes will be different. It’s better to make that decision as early as possible so both teacher and student won’t waste time on each other.

27

[QUOTE=Orion Paximus;1192931]I guess it really depends on your purpose then. Are you training to:

  1. Just learn how to fight
  2. Say you know Kung Fu
  3. Actually learn a system

It seems to me that a lot of people that comment on this board aren’t really interested in learning a system to carry it on to the next generation. When I started learning Kung Fu, being chosen or allowed to inherit the system seemed like the only goal… and really it’s still what I care about most.[/QUOTE]

A valid point.
Traditionally, systems either had a few sets or a bunch.
Depending on the current GM inclination towards forms.
Those that had limited forms were more inclined to be “hands on” and "combat oriented’ in their mode of succession - best fighter passed it on ( exceptions did happen of course).
Systems that had many forms had them because they believed that different people need different skills to fight, to the GM would teach the right form to thr right person.
Typically only a small group would have ALL the forms and these would be the ones to pass it on.
Of course those that only learned some of the forms passed them on as well ( hence we get silly lineage wars about who has the real whatever).

There was no “best method”, it is not a case of either/ or but simply a case of which method best suited the GM of the time of that particular branch/style/pai, etc..
’

28

The following conversation did happened during one of my TCMA goodwell tours in China.

A: How many forms do you teach to your students?
B: Only 3. How about you?
A: I teach 15 forms to my students.
B: Why do you need to teach that many forms?
A: How long can you keep your students with only 3 forms?
B: …

29

@YouKnowWho: I agree, the training methods should definitely be different depending on your path. I was fortunate to know what I wanted to do early on. Luckily, IMO, becoming a good fighter also comes with the more extensive training of learning a complete system so it’s the best of both worlds, it just requires a larger commitment.

@sanjuro: I wish more teachers thought of CMA as a gift to pass on than a trophy to display.

30

When I learned CLF, I had to learn and practice everything up to the level to become a teacher myself, whether I liked it or not. And there is a LOT of material; CLF is a vast system. And I did teach for several years, but not anymore, and I don’t intend to again. Now I only train for myself. I train the parts that I feel are important for me, and put the rest ‘on the shelf’. The other material is still in my head and body, I just don’t spend much or any time on it anymore. Since I’m training for my own benefit, I want to concentrate on the quality of what I’m doing rather than the quantity.

A practitioner isn’t necessarily selfish or lesser to not want to pass on the art to the next generation, if that isn’t their goal. It was a goal of mine once, but priorities can change. I fully respect those who make it a priority to pass on their art; otherwise, how would I have learned it, right? There are other qualified people from my art who are passing it on.

31

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1192938]The following conversation did happened during one of my TCMA goodwell tours in China.

A: How many forms do you teach to your students?
B: Only 3. How about you?
A: I teach 15 forms to my students.
B: Why do you need to teach that many forms?
A: How long can you keep your students with only 3 forms?
B: …[/QUOTE]

I mean if you’re teaching 15 Tiger forms then yeah, that’s a bit much, how many unique techniques could you possibly be passing on? But if those 15 forms teach 3 different systems of fighting, then it’s not about retention for money’s sake, but about passing on a true system. FWIW, I’m sure someone could validate 15 tiger forms, I’m just using it as an example.

32

[QUOTE=Orion Paximus;1192939]@YouKnowWho: I agree, the training methods should definitely be different depending on your path. I was fortunate to know what I wanted to do early on. Luckily, IMO, becoming a good fighter also comes with the more extensive training of learning a complete system so it’s the best of both worlds, it just requires a larger commitment.

@sanjuro: I wish more teachers thought of CMA as a gift to pass on than a trophy to display.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it is fair to judge others because they don’t have the same POV as we do.
Not ever MA is a teacher and not every teacher is a good one and most certainly, not every teacher should be teaching.
Passing on a MA was never something done “just because it has to be passed on”, many teacher were quite happy to die and take their MA with them.
There is no reason to think that passing on a MA is a “great accomplishment”.

33

Don’t misunderstand, I’m not saying that it’s something to be revered, but something that should be paramount! It’s about preserving the history of something that you (the general you i guess) find important. All martial artists, in a sense, are keepers of a historical treasure. I don’t know, that just seems important to me for some reason.

34

I read an article by Adam Hsu that, if I remember right, said that there were originally 10 hand sets in the Cha Chuan system, but that most of the Cha Chuan masters only have about half of the sets. Apparently, this didn’t stop them from having a comprehensive understanding and ability in their art.

35

[QUOTE=Orion Paximus;1192939] I wish more teachers thought of CMA as a gift to pass on than a trophy to display.[/QUOTE]

I don’t teach form any more. The reason is simple. My longfist brother Yang Jwing-Ming is doing that. I don’t feel any responsibility to pass down the art of SC either. My SC brother David C. K. Lin is doing that. After my students have learned my favor moves, I’ll tell them that they can leave any time they want to and find themselves other teachers. If my teacher’s best moves are what I want to develop, that’s all I care about. I prefer to be able to take care 7 opponents by just one move than to be able to use 7 moves just to take care one opponent.

36

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1192950]I read an article by Adam Hsu that, if I remember right, said that there were originally 10 sets in the Cha Chuan system, but that most of the Cha Chuan masters only have about half of the sets.[/QUOTE]

You are right. My longfist brother Nelson Zhou in NYC had learned Cha Chuan 1, 2, 3, and 4. I had only learned Cha Chuan 4. There are book for Cha Chuan 5. I have not heard or seen Cha Chuan 6, 7, … yet.

37

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1192944]
Passing on a MA was never something done “just because it has to be passed on”, many teacher were quite happy to die and take their MA with them.
There is no reason to think that passing on a MA is a “great accomplishment”.[/QUOTE]

During the cultural revolution it was a fairly great accomplishment to pass something on. I’m glad for it. There are so many aspects to KungFu that there is no way of Me telling how much a style of KungFu can affect someone else’s life, and in what ways. It may mean a lot more to someone of the future then to me now.

If all people passed on all their skills all throughout history we we be far more advanced today in all aspects. I think anyone can be a teacher if they have something that someone else wants to learn, no matter what it is.

38

GongFu in China is HIGH CULTURE. In the west high culture is Classical Music, Fine Art, Ballet, Poetry, Theatre, Ethics, Philosophy, Literature, Architecture Etc. When you look at these things they have little practical application to the life of the average peasant. Its true, but it is because of these things that our civilisations are as fantastic as they are. High Culture inspires all levels of society.

If you don’t understand the importance of High Culture to society, then I can’t help you, but I am sure their are many essays you can find.

Gong Fu in China is High Culture. It is not simply a bag of dirty tricks to be pulled out during combat. It is penetrates all aspects of a mans life and makes them BETTER.

Form is the ballet, the poetry, the music, the fine art. It is these things as well as a Martial Art and a philosophy. It is important to appreciate it, to attempt it, to learn it and to pass it on.

Ask a singer how many songs they can sing? I can play any form if you give me the lyrics.

Does a musician only learn to play one tune? If you are good you should be able to play any set of movements because you are a master of the instrument that is your body. So I say, practice many forms, and revel in the moment.

39

I once had the entire BSL system

That was all the 26 forms listed here plus a few more for good measure. I don’t have them all now because that’s a lot of forms to maintain, way more than I needed as I don’t teach any more. But I’m very proud to have accomplished that. What’s more, BSL is an amazing system when you get that many forms. It opens up this whole new door. The BSL 10 hand forms function as an amazing training system. Sure, it’s laborious, and it would be much more efficient to train basic strikes. But ask anyone who’s completed the BSL 10. We’ll all tell you what a magnificent composition it is when you get the whole thing.

40

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1192999]GongFu in China is HIGH CULTURE. In the west high culture is Classical Music, Fine Art, Ballet, Poetry, Theatre, Ethics, Philosophy, Literature, Architecture Etc. When you look at these things they have little practical application to the life of the average peasant. Its true, but it is because of these things that our civilisations are as fantastic as they are. High Culture inspires all levels of society.

If you don’t understand the importance of High Culture to society, then I can’t help you, but I am sure their are many essays you can find.

Gong Fu in China is High Culture. It is not simply a bag of dirty tricks to be pulled out during combat. It is penetrates all aspects of a mans life and makes them BETTER.

Form is the ballet, the poetry, the music, the fine art. It is these things as well as a Martial Art and a philosophy. It is important to appreciate it, to attempt it, to learn it and to pass it on.

Ask a singer how many songs they can sing? I can play any form if you give me the lyrics.

Does a musician only learn to play one tune? If you are good you should be able to play any set of movements because you are a master of the instrument that is your body. So I say, practice many forms, and revel in the moment.[/QUOTE]

Actually, IME, many of the people who seem to display the least interest in kung fu are Chinese.

Everyone is different. I have learned MANY forms, in CLF, and before that, Tanglang quan and also, Chang Chuan. Also some Lung Ying sets. These aren’t even counting the weapon sets, and all the other important material that goes into learning a kung fu system. I had no problem doing the sets in each art with the flavor of that art; meaning, I practiced TLQ with TLQ body and CLF with CLF flavor, even allowing for differences in the stances, footwork, etc, etc. I finally settled only on CLF.

At some point, too much is too much. Trying to practice/maintain too many sets or styles is like going further into debt; you’re never caught up. Then it can be more difficult to be ‘in the moment’ during practice because you’re just trying to maintain rather than improve, which becomes difficult anyway, with so much quantity. Practicing sets/ forms is only a part of kung fu practice, not the only or main focus.

But then, everyone’s purpose for training is different. I’m only saying what I eventually arrived at; quality of practice time over quantity of material. Of course, enough material makes practice much richer, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Plus…not everyone who trains MA has a life centered only on practicing and teaching kung fu. Kung fu was the center of my life for years, but now it’s not. I must make my practice time count. Kung fu must share my time now with other responsibilities and other interests, too.