ok so to sum up a bit again:
Chi sao, sparring and fighting are all different things.
Being good in one won’t necessarily help you in the others, but depending on the individual, may help.
The only way to guarantee getting good at each one of these is to practice that one in particular.
And all of this depends on having first reached realtive mastery of the basics.
Is this a fair conclusion?
yes it is 100% necessary
Which traditionalists are you referring to? There are many traditionalists who distinguish between chi sao and fighting.
Real fighting except for actual unavoidable self defense is against the law- at least in the USA.
Sparring with gloves in a conventional sense is even further removed from fighting,if wing chun principles are to be used…(unless you really know what you are doing and you know wing chun in great depth)
You have real fighting and various forms of simulation
yes it is 100% necessary
Like he said.
When I moved to Muay Thai from a couple years JingWu I got soundly trounced…not because my JingWu sucked, but because since we didn’t spar I had a very unrealistic idea of my exact range, body movements under stress, etc. I can remember a couple of sparring matches where I had the guy lined up perfectly for a gwa choy and missed! After a month of sparring (both JingWu and Muay Thai) I no longer missed.
That said I also learned something else from sparring that no amount of air drills will teach you, though Chi Sao will to a degree, and that was learning to be able to see when a person will move. Being able to judge by body language when they will kick, punch, lunge, whatever. You simply cannot learn this without hands on experience. I realise that in the perfect Wing Chun world we’d have our guards up, be in stance, etc and calmly use our WC to dismember the bad guy…but I’ve found (like many before me) that being able to determine someone’s intentions before the s*it hits the fan is worth spending some time on.
Plus sparring teaches you to take hits. This will happen. If you think you will never get hit then you are living in a fantasy world. If you’ve never been hit you have no idea how you’re going to react to someone’s fist hitting you on the nose, in the gut, etc.
Sparring is not the be all and end all. But a style that can’t be tested is a style that can’t be trusted.
yes it is 100% necessary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Like he said.
When I moved to Muay Thai from a couple years JingWu I got soundly trounced…not because my JingWu sucked, but because since we didn’t spar I had a very unrealistic idea of my exact range, body movements under stress, etc. I can remember a couple of sparring matches where I had the guy lined up perfectly for a gwa choy and missed! After a month of sparring (both JingWu and Muay Thai) I no longer missed.
((Dont have any idea how much wing chun you really learned))
That said I also learned something else from sparring that no amount of air drills will teach you, though Chi Sao will to a degree, and that was learning to be able to see when a person will move. Being able to judge by body language when they will kick, punch, lunge, whatever. You simply cannot learn this without hands on experience.
(( I have no idea how much good chi sao you really did))
I realise that in the perfect Wing Chun world we’d have our guards up, be in stance, etc
((???))) Yuanfen -non christian non disciple- in contrast to straight blasts own stated ID)))
hi my friends
my friends sparing in traning its important for many reasons but wing chunger must have some level in traning and must have good strategy for timing and atention in sparing for ewry level - just my oppinion and friendly tiger_1:)
OK OK OK
Just out of interest, any wingchunners out there that have used their skills in a real fight?
And if so, did you ever spar?
What would be really interesting is if someone did no sparring and then got in a real fight, and then did some sparring and got in a real fight again!!
Anyone fit the bill?
yuanfen…
I’m sure you had a point…care to share it?
QUOTE]Once again Sparring is not fighting any more than playing Lop Sao is. it’s an exersice to build attributes.[/QUOTE]
Are they the correct attributes?
Arent the correct attributes better trained in more specific drills, avoiding training the incorrect attributes?
theres a reason why everybody says kung fu sucks,
from the looks of it, half of you guys do not spar at all.
Do you know why nobody says boxing sucks? because they spar every single class, there is not one class do they not go at each other and bruising each other up.
I can NOT believe some of you guys do not spar, I hope none of you get into a fight or you are about to get ass kicked so bad.
My god my god… This thread lays down the reason why. Kung fu/ Wing Chun SUCKS.
50% of the people HAS 0 EXPERIENCE in any kind of fighting no matter if its light sparing.
SCARY.
Heya,
IMHO, Sparring is very important for developing dynamic footwork, positioning, distance, stragety and the ability to bridge the gap between leg and arm range.
As we all know, footwork and position is half the battle won.
While its all nice when we start off at Contact, often we’re just not going to be that lucky 
My 2c
Neurotic
Relax…
I can NOT believe some of you guys do not spar, I hope none of you get into a fight or you are about to get ass kicked so bad
I’m inclined to agree with you on that, but as to nobody saying boxing sucks? Boxing cops more flak than most due to the fact that they only fight with fists. Man I boxed for years and even I heard the sh!t that got layed on boxers.
Other than that, good troll!
The guy is not a troll. The main reason Wing Chun has had so little success is that in the beginning chi sau was seen as being enough to learn to cope with ‘real fighting’. That has BLATENTLY been proven wrong. In anyone seriosuly believes that you can learn to figth playing chi-sau all day, you are in for a big surprise.
I read an interview with Emin Boztepe recentle where he stated that ‘Chi-sau is just a method of relaxing the limbs’.
It is not about some strange energy manipulation or any other ****. It is about staying relaxed and increasing sensitivity so that you can react instantly to the oponents moves. It is a TRAINING DRILL. No more.
You need sparrring. Wing chun literiture advocates sparring. Without it, you are just playing a hand game removed from the reality of fighting.
Yes,chi sau is a drill!..But it is IMO the best drill to ingrain and learn how to use Wing Chun motions and timings. San sau is an other drill when you practice responding to various attacks from a certain distance but the instant contact is made…Chi sau kick in again!
Using chi sau skill in a fight does not involve “rolling hands”!!!..It means using the skill obtained in chi sau practice.You intercept the attack,you stick,deflect,move,disrupt the opponent balance,strike,whatever.
Argh, I thought these “traditional guys don’t spar” folks had all went away of late. Apparently they haven’t.
Sparring is absolutely necessary to acquiring fighting skills.
Sure, some skills must be worked on in other drills. Sparring is something you really have to do later on, to get a real feel for the techniques, range, timing, etc. Also, learning to get hit in sparring is very important and it is a very important tool in developing the correct mental attitude.
What we define as sparring is a relevant question. I know it has created confusion in the past. What I’m talking about is a semi- to full-contact bout with non-choreographed moves – a controlled free for all, with common sense being the limit for your techniques and power.
I firmly believe – within the context of CMA – that you need to work your way up to sparring and not merely jump straight into it. Though in small doses I think it’s an excellent reminder towards showing what you really are training at any stage.
Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one’s “patty cake” fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one’s “patty cake” chi sau.
However, for those preparing for REAL life-threatening situations, there is no room for sparring in his training.
whip,does cross hands count?
has your life been threatened to know the true meaning of what you say?
Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one’s “patty cake” fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one’s “patty cake” chi sau
Yeah, some of us just play “patty cake” harder than others I guess :rolleyes: Three broken bones in six months from my pattycaking.
It’s funny how only those who don’t spar advocate against it. It’s nothing to be scared of guys. Give it a try before condemning it. Who knows, you may just do what the rest of us have and learn something.
If not, enjoy your ‘dry land swimming’. 
Daredevil wrote:
>> What we define as sparring is a relevant question. I know it has created confusion in the past. What I’m talking about is a semi- to full-contact bout with non-choreographed moves – a controlled free for all, with common sense being the limit for your techniques and power. <<
The above description is what we would simply call “free” chisao, which is a natural extension of chisao, which practioners work their way up to, over a period of years. We have the same definitions, but just call it different things.
No wonder there is such confusion! 
Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one’s “patty cake” fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one’s “patty cake” chi sau.
He, he… if I ever have a serious fight with another Wing Chun guy I hope he shares your attitude. His face will be playing “patty cake” with the pavement.