A lot of this discussion hinges on what we define as sparring, for example is gor sao included in sparring, and what about ‘sparring drills’
Free-sparring is for sport, and yes, plays no part in what wing chun is for.
‘Sparring drills’ on the other hand have theyre uses - among my sihing are a ferocious amatuer boxer, a 20-yr karateka, and i have among my students a couple of muay thai guys and an experienced jiu-jitsu player.
We do ‘Sparring drills’ where someone dons the 16oz gloves, and then enters with a jab, jab-cross, a kick, whatever. It may just be punching combo’s, could be a shoot, a feint, depends, different ranges, so many different aspects to train, endless number of drills - depends on what we’re training, which again, depends on the level of the class - more experience, less ‘sparring’. The majority of class time is usually chi-sao - there again, many different aspects to train, different drills, different intent. Perhaps chi-sao is just a range itself?
As for the trad\modern argument - i teach my students to fight. For every question, wing chun seems to have the best answer. Often the best way and the traditional way are very close indeed - coincidence perhaps?
kieofwoo - i found after some time in wing chun, friends of other styles stopped inviting me to sparring sessions. You become pretty unpopular pretty quick if you refuse to join in sparring games and simply go for the kill. Besides trying to spar a wc player is frustrating - people dont like to see their illusions shattered.
I’d say if students are progressing well, they should be able to do some sparring with other styles after 3 or 4 months. It depends on their natural ability + how fast your school throws new info at them. Students enjoy the competition + it’s nice to get it out of the way before settling down to more realistic defense training. The techniques they use should be severely limted to a few key moves and trained as drills in advance. So long as they are fighting with wc, no problem. If they start looking like kickboxing, it’s too late!
Those who don’t spar often have an unrealistic outlook on fighting and are pitifully easy to beat by someone who does spar. Chi Sao and one step drills do not prepare you for fighting by themselves. You have to have some free fighting to simulate (as closely and safely as possible) real life confrontation. Those who claim sparring promotes bad habits clearly do not know how to spar or understand it’s use as a training tool. That’s like saying Chi Sao promotes bad habits because the positioning leaves you open to takedowns but as we all know you don’t chi sao or spar in a real fight but they are great training tools to prepare us for one.
Excuses I hear from so called “Tradionalists” (a name I consider insulting) for not sparring rank right up there with the old “I can’t use eye pokes and crotch grabs so I can’t fight in NHB” cop out.
However, if you are a beginner then you have some time before you need to start working on sparring. You need to have become comfortable with the system and to have been doing Chi Sao for a while first.
Sorry to burst your bubbles guys. Yip Man used to stuff his and his partner’s clothes with hay and spar full force, back in Fatshan. Sorry I don’t remember the reference, it may be out on the web somewhere. Renee?
Sparring is not the place to “test” your Wing Chun or fighting skills any more than any other drill is. The only way to “test” fighting skills is to fight. Sparring is a learning environment.
I believe it would be best for some of you people to read Marc MacYoung’s website. Here’s my take on the subject. Sparring is like fighting or dueling with rules. If you do this on the streets the chances of you and the other guy going to jail, if the cops happen to get their in time are 99.9 % your both going in. Now Self-Defense is something totally different, which is how I train my Wing Chun (reaction/reflex) is to immediatly use effective action to stop the other person and get the hell out of there. This is a life or death situation. The minute you start engaging in a fight/duel with the other person you are considered the bad guy in the eyes of the law. Fighting is illegal, Self-defense is not. Please read Marc’s website, it has open my eyes.
Once again Sparring is not fighting any more than playing Lop Sao is. it’s an exersice to build attributes. Why do tradionalists refuse to accept this fact? What are they afraid of?
For the sake of arguments can we all agree that chi sau is not sparring?
Just some thoughts [/B]
No we can’t. What some of us class as chi sao others call sparring - this has come up on other threads.
For those that are against sparring can you tell me why - what is inherent in your definition of sparring that trains bad habits?
Any answer that involves saying you have to limit techniques or pull strikes will also rule out chi sao as equally damaging - in fact it would rule out anything other than no rules fighting.
But you wont be around to say I told you so if you seriously think forms, chi sao, and partner drills will prepare you for any kind of serious, the-other-guy-WANTS-to-hurt-or-KILL-you confrotation on the streets or anywhere else violent things sometimes happen.
If all your intrested in is self-defense, then you need very little physical or kung-fu training. You need to look at ways to handle adrenaline dump, environmental and situational awareness, common sense - like parking your car in well-lit areas, and not being on the dark, scary streets alone, and being a bright, SD oriented person, you would goto some sort of kali teacher or something and learn about not being killed in a knife encounter.
Thats self-defense.
For the sake of arguments can we all agree that chi sau is not sparring?
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chi sau is not sparring, however if you do wing chun, a part of sparring is chi sau
chi sau is for the instant you make contact. sparring can train your ability to let go and have your chi sau take over.
i dont think sparring is good until someone has a firm grounding in chi sau. if you want to spar in wing chun, you have to get to a level of chi sau where things just happen, then sparring will let you learn to utilize your chi sau in a real sense. it also trains ranging and some other skills that arent gained by solely doing chi sau.
wing chun definately has sparring, its just ****her down the line of training than in other arts. you have to get to a point where you can actually use your wing chun before you should start sparring
Chi sau is not just a tool to learn sensitivity.It is also a tool to learn attacking and defensive lines,timing,angles,deflecting forces,use of the energy,awareness of the opponent balance and intent,etc,etc…All of these are real and effective tools for fighting,not playing Bruce Lee!..
You will use the results of your training in a fight not a training method!.. Chi sau gives the patient practitioner results that are not dependant on fixed patterns,feints,moving around,looking mean,terrain,clothings,etc…
If you have to fight,don’t sparr…fight! The better your Wing Chun,the better you will be able to fight.
Please allow me to clarify my position. Sparring is a very useful tool for the evaluation of various skill sets. What I failed to mention earlier is that I was primarily thinking about competitive “light” sparring as generally found in tournaments. If you are acting on the advice of your sifu then that is yet another matter entirely. I do believe that whatever the results in sparring good or bad isn’t necessarily a reflection of how a situation would go in the “street”.
Chi Sau is technically a form of sparring although I tend to think of it more as a training tool.
Regardless of what my opinions are I reserve the right to change my opinions in the future should I discover that I am in error. I am a relative beginner afterall.
Chi sau gives the patient practitioner results that are not dependant on fixed patterns,feints,moving around,looking mean,terrain,clothings,etc…