Is it just me or is everyone else getting sick and tired of the pi$$ poor “Marketing” that martial arts is getting lately. I mean, everyone is buying videos, or books, or taking stuff from the internet, and trying to run a school with it. I don’t have a problem with people trying to better their school, but come on. People changing their curriculum because of something they have been told, and have NO idea about. People learning from vids and books and starting their own school. People taking LITTLE knowledge of a bunch of styles and making their own up, and then talking like they know everything.
If you wanna run a McKwoon, that’s your own business. If you wanna say you know 900+ forms, and tell people that you are the “ONLY” true master of a style, that’s fine. But beware that people that have busted their ass for YEARS doing an art that they love, and have educated themselves in all aspect, are going to call you on your decision.
People who are doing this not only make themselves look like idiots, but the people who are fighing for the integrity of their martial art as well, for THIS reason. The frauds and McKwoon and McDojo owners out there make people that they screw over look at ALL martial arts schools and people to be HUGE morons.
I guess I just needed to vent. But I am also wondering how many people agree/disagree with this?
the guy who taught my style was somewhat of a bad dude, he was killed over beef in a nightclub, and now im finding out that in the history of one part of my style, its filled with chinese gangsters, so its not like i can goto the library and get real info, everything i got was free, and i assume all the rest i’l find based on luck:)
People who do this sort of thing only look like idiots to those who know something about MA. For the everday average citizen, these charlatans sound like the real deal.
It’s up to us, people who know true martial arts, to educate the public as to what’s bona fide and what’s a hoax. Unfortunately, there’s very little alliance between the various styles of MA to even combat this insidious problem, and they therefore leave themselves open to being taken over by McKwoons and McDojos.
And in the long run, who do you blame for that problem…?
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With the advent of Shaolin Monks putting thier forms on video, if someone learns the form from video, and performs it correctly, does it matter where they learned it from? it’s the same form as if they learned it form the Monk right??
Or how about this, supose they LEARN it from the tape, but later fly out to the Monk for the corrections?? How does THAT fit inot the picture???
Is it OK to add a few forms from a tape, but not a whole curriculem??
What about guys like me who are interested in a rare style but there are no teachers for 1000 miles around?? Is it OK to learn from a couraspondence course and then fly in to train under the Master a few times a year?? And eventually teach when that master approves?? Does the review under the master make it OK, even though the system was originally learned from a video??
What about someone who was taught a generic Shaolin curriculem, accurate in principal and mechanics, but done with totally made up forms?? Is it ok for them to purchase a Shaolin Monk video currculem in an effort to provide a more technically correct curriculem to thier students? It would be an improvement over what they “Were” doing right??
Obviously lieing about your history, and puffing up your credentials is wrong, but what about those of us that sit in the “Grey” area??
wushu chik,
i understand your need to vent.
on the other hand…who cares what other people do?
if they want to learn from a book and start a school, your life probably won’t come to a halt
some one said that to the general public it looks authentic
to the general public lots of crap looks authentic. they don’t care anyway. i didn’t realize we were trying to convince the general public of anything. they will tire of martial arts in a month or two, like they do with everything else
its easy to determine the authentic schools: they last.
wait for the fad to die down and things will go back to being the way they were.
the authentic teachers that love their art will continue to do so, and they will disregard the teachers who are out to make a quick buck.
even if the general public were taught the difference between a mcdojo and an authentic school, they wouldnt care.
people who train in mcdojo’s are generally happy to be there, or they wouldnt go.
granted, some people who want authentic stuff might be getting screwed over, but that’s life. the whole “should i sue temple kung fu” thread seems to deal with that. its too bad.
what’s my point? i forget…
Royal Dragon, i see your point, and, i agree to a point. On the other hand, i still think that people should get their “basics” from a teacher. I am mainly talking about the people that say “I teach ‘Kung Fu’, even though it looks like kempo, and nothing about it is kung fu…i still teach it, because I like the name.” That’s what I am mainly talking about…and all the idiots that lie to people. We have a school here that says they teach “Kung Fu”, the 13 Animals styles…TREE, WIZARD, BULLFIGHTER, GANGFIGHTER, ETC…
wangsizhong~ you are the type of person that’s part of the problem with martial arts. Try being part of the solution. “To the general public, lots of crap looks authentic…blah blah blah.” Yeah, and if they aren’t educated, and ****ing idiots that have mckwoons and stuff keep up their lying bs, then THEY are the problem. Instead of turning a blind eye, as it looks like YOU do…try educating someone. It might just make you feel good!
I just see it as the price you have to pay for living in a free society. Having lots of crappy, inferior imitators out there is the inevitable byproduct of giving authentic practitioners the freedom to do what they do the way they want to do it. I will gladly choose to rely on my own critical abilities to sift through the crap rather than have some authoritarian organization have the power to decide who’s qualified to teach.
I think people find what they expect to find. The schools and teachers that you mention only fill a need, they migh feel that they are the real schools and yours is not. who would be right?
dose it really matter?
Many people when shown “real”(what ever that is supposed to mean kung fu) they often don’t have the skill to see or know it.
where i practice push hands i see many people and teachers playing TC in the park, people chose and play according to their expectations and level of experience.
It’s a big park I think there is room for all of us to play.
If you’re talking about traditional branches of kung fu, then yeah obviously you need proper credentials and lineage to a master.
If you’re talking about just a school that teaches self-defense and fighting…well you can get away with ex-cops, people who have been in real fights, bouncers, etc. who may not have the prestigous “black belt”
It all depends on what is being taught, how it’s sold, and who its marketed to. Professional fighters use videos a lot, but obviously they already have a base in the arts given by good teachers.
Lineage is important, but not as important as skill and experience in my opinion. However…if you’re “Claiming” a style which you have no lineage to… well then now you’re talking about something different.
I’m inclined to agree with Wang Si Zhong over Wushu Chik.
The general public don’t want educating, they couldn’t give a ****.
Those that want it will search for it, and those that are happy with a light workout will take what they want from a McKwoon or McDojo. You can go in as deep, or as shallow, as you want.
I personally couldn’t give a toss about the public’s perception of MA, as long as I can still get proper training. Which is where the crunch comes… Will proper training die out with the proliferation of substandard schools and instructors?
Take the metal music scene. People think of metal, they think of Iron Maiden. Now, the vast majority of metal fans do not listen to Iron Maiden, and they couldn’t give a **** that the public think they do becuase their own underground scene is alive and well.
But then, if you own a school, and your’re losing or not gaining students because the training down the road at your local McKwoon is easier and more ‘fun’, then I suppose you’d think a little differently about the whole thing.
The problem seems to be with the “idiots” that put out these videos, books, etc. which arent really that idiotic. They make a lot of money from this. Some of these are the “great masters” that are the first to complain about anything and everything.
Doesnt seem right to insult and demonize the consumer simply because they bought a learning aid, gained from it, and passed it along to another.
Bottom line, like it or not, its the American way.
Fightfan…you are totally misconstruding what i am saying..along with a lot of the others are as well. I am not talking about the people that put them out on vids. I am not really even talking about the people that buy the vids and learn. I am talking about the people that learn from books, vids, etc, then LIE about where they learned it from, open and run a halfassed school, and turn it into a McKwoon or McDojo. Some of these people also are taking stuff that they have “heard” from here, or other parts of the internet. Or, changing their curriculum to “match” what they have heard about other schools. Then, they promote it for ONE reason, and ONE reason only. To make the buck.
Most people don’t realize that most the people who put out these books and vids change subtle things in them, and this is so the teachers who have sold the vids KNOW when somebody has learned it from their videos or book.
I am sorry if I didn’t say what I wanted to say clearly. I hope this clears up some stuff. Like i said before, i needed to vent.
Wushu chik I am with you, funnily enough, everytime I say that as martial artist we have a responsibility to our community as well, people get excited. Also, and I may be extreme in this view, but I think the old challeneg system in China worked just fine to controle this sort of thing. You challenege someone to see if they really have the skill they say they do, if they do, great, if they dont you make sure they dont want to teach again!
And see, just what I am talking about. If you look down the main forum on here, you will see PJO’s thread…fishing again. I already have CONFIRMATION from one of his students that he’s taking stuff from here, and adding it to their curriculum! Suspect? I do think so. So, these are the type of people that are giving Kung Fu a BAD name, all for his pocketbook, with NO knowledge. It’s pathetic. And you guys wonder why I am ****ed?
I think most of us understand completey. Some of us agree with you, its sick and wrong, but it shows the value americans place on money.
WushuChick I would go so far as to say this behaviour is dangerous. If you give a kid the confidence to fight or defend himself but not the skill, they are going to get hurt. That is why it doesnt bother to say that challenges are the way to go. I already have plans to challeneg a local sifu here when I am ready and I will be making it very public, the outcome, for or against him. The way I figure it, if he beats me, he is still money grubbing but atleast he knows his stuff, if I beat him, everyone needs to know.
Too many wanna be sifu/instructor/masters out there. Some of them need a good pounding.
