Is kung fu dead? If your referring to it’s popularity then just wait for that one good unique kung fu movie that appeals to the mass and it will resurge again. Like what the Ip Man movies did for Wing Chun. And what Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan did during their times. It’s lame, but unfortunately true.
What do you think that a 70 years old boxer, MT guy, Judo guy, BJJ guy would “train at home alone when sparring/wrestling is not available”?
A
- boxer may train jab, cross, hook, uppercut combo as shadow boxing.
- MT guy may train roundhouse kick, jab, cross, elbow, clinch, knee strike combo solo drill.
- Judo guy may train hip throw, inner hook, outer hook combo solo drill.
- BJJ guy may …
Whether you want to call it shadow boxing or form, I don’t see much different there. We don’t have training partner 24/7. How to train solo at home should have no difference between styles.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1256672]What do you think that a 70 years old boxer, MT guy, Judo guy, BJJ guy would “train at home alone when sparring/wrestling is not available”?
A
- boxer may train jab, cross, hook, uppercut combo as shadow boxing.
- MT guy may train roundhouse kick, jab, cross, elbow, clinch, knee strike combo solo drill.
- Judo guy may train hip throw, inner hook, outer hook combo solo drill.
- BJJ guy may …
Whether you want to call it shadow boxing or form, I don’t see much different there. We don’t have training partner 24/7. How to train solo at home should have no difference between styles.[/QUOTE]
The main difference is that the Judokas, BJJ’ers, boxers, wrestlers, and MT practitioners are making their “forms” up on the fly based on their past experiences with applying techniques against opponents.
They also understand how ludicrous it would be to try to “find” techniques in some made up form.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1256674]The main difference is that the Judokas, BJJ’ers, boxers, wrestlers, and MT practitioners are making their “forms” up on the fly based on their past experiences with applying techniques against opponents.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1256674]The main difference is that the Judokas, BJJ’ers, boxers, wrestlers, and MT practitioners are making their “forms” up on the fly based on their past experiences with applying techniques against opponents.
They also understand how ludicrous it would be to try to “find” techniques in some made up form.[/QUOTE]
Wow you are seriously one thick brick!
YKW wrote:
If you fight all your life, one day you are too old to fight. You don’t want to quit training. You collect all your favor fighting combos, link it into a form. Before you die, you teach that sequence to your students. Your students then pass it down to the next generation. That’s a form.
Ten Tigers wrote:
“Some” Forms can be a textbook. Many systems don’t have forms and simply have a long list of techniques, but if that list is lost or forgotten, so is the system. With a form, you can always extract and extrapolate your techniques.
(mind you, not all forms are textbooks (kuen-faht) some are developmental (gung-faht), but in this specific case, we are talking about textbook.
I wrote:
I don’t think you comphrehend the meaning of kata/xing. It means pattern, form, shape, appearance. One movement can be a form as can several linked movements. Let’s take boxing as an example. Jab, hook and uppercut combo practiced on the heavy bag, focus mitts, shadow boxing or sparring partner. This is classified by TCMA standards as form, and it’s utility, relevance, application, etc is defined by it’s use. TCMA forms are individual movements/application merely linked. They have a specific use and are not open to just any interpretation, the application has to follow the principles, it then has to be trained solo for ingraining of technique and then with a partner for proper application. As I stated in my earlier post it is a repository of sanshi (loose technique). Some methods of TCMA only have sanshi some have taolu, which is just linked sanshi. Sanshi is xing and the same method of collection used by BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc, they just don’t link the sanshi into taolu.
You agree one minute and disagree the next, then you contradict yourself with your above statement. All “forms” are based on someone’s past experience with applying a technique against an opponent. They then use the form or collection of techniques to teach another. Whether individual techniques systematically cataloged or several strung together, both methods of transmission are FORMS. No one is arguing with you over the conceptual interpretation of the movements, which you seem to be fixated on. There was some discussion about move X, traditionally interpreted as a punch being considered as a throw, etc. Opinions were varied. You then go on a tangent about how forms are useless etc. Well here’s the the truth of it, even if you studied BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc. those individual movements that you learned are forms.
But I guess with all of your contradictory ranting you were talking about something else, like making up applications on the fly in the heat of battle without ever having trained in anything. Let me know how your impromptu, spontaneous art of LaRoux Do works out for you in the real world.
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1256658]Hmmm…Actually this discussion’s been going on a lot longer than that. Since MMA…since Bruce Lee’s death…since cultural revolution…since boxer rebellion…since… what can you infer from this? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
the more history you read, the more you should be aware of some reoccurring issues in CMA that have been going on thousands of years…
that being said, I think we are in a new era… in the past there were those raging against the problems and trying to keep CMA pure and combat effective. IN today’s age, who really cares about “combat effective”? Certainly we have tournaments, and health, and contemporary wushu and movies, etc
And those seeking combat effectiveness have MMA…
There ARE difference with today’s situation
[QUOTE=Wuxia007;1256670]Is kung fu dead? If your referring to it’s popularity then just wait for that one good unique kung fu movie that appeals to the mass and it will resurge again. Like what the Ip Man movies did for Wing Chun. And what Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan did during their times. It’s lame, but unfortunately true.[/QUOTE] Nothing lame about it, it’s the benediction of the SPIRITS of the Old Masters. Not to mention the Kungfu Gods in all their pervasiveness. 
[QUOTE=dlcox;1256686]Wow you are seriously one thick brick!
YKW wrote:
Ten Tigers wrote:
I wrote:
You agree one minute and disagree the next, then you contradict yourself with your above statement. All “forms” are based on someone’s past experience with applying a technique against an opponent. They then use the form or collection of techniques to teach another. Whether individual techniques systematically cataloged or several strung together, both methods of transmission are FORMS. No one is arguing with you over the conceptual interpretation of the movements, which you seem to be fixated on. There was some discussion about move X, traditionally interpreted as a punch being considered as a throw, etc. Opinions were varied. You then go on a tangent about how forms are useless etc. Well here’s the the truth of it, even if you studied BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc. those individual movements that you learned are forms.
But I guess with all of your contradictory ranting you were talking about something else, like making up applications on the fly in the heat of battle without ever having trained in anything. Let me know how your impromptu, spontaneous art of LaRoux Do works out for you in the real world.[/QUOTE]
You are one very thick brick.
Taking a form and passing it on to someone who then uses that form to learn from or teach others is completely useless and is exactly how so many TMA systems have been propogated.
Passing on your techniques by teaching others who then teach others those same techniques (that usually have been modified to be even better) is how effective systems like BJJ, wrestling, MMA and boxing have evolved to be top of the food chain.
When techniques are passed on in an effective manner, there is no need for forms in the first place.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1256687]I think we are in a new era… in the past there were those raging against the problems and trying to keep CMA pure and combat effective. IN today’s age, who really cares about “combat effective”? [/QUOTE]
I could probably name a dozen regular posters here who care about that…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1256687]the more history you read, the more you should be aware of some reoccurring issues in CMA that have been going on thousands of years…
that being said, I think we are in a new era… in the past there were those raging against the problems and trying to keep CMA pure and combat effective. IN today’s age, who really cares about “combat effective”? Certainly we have tournaments, and health, and contemporary wushu and movies, etc
And those seeking combat effectiveness have MMA…
There ARE difference with today’s situation[/QUOTE]
Dave you have brought up a very important point. This day and age their are many more venues than in the distant past in which the study of TCMA can be an asset. An individual can choose to specialize in a particular area of TCMA to succeed in a specific field, movies, dance, MMA, Wushu and TMA tournaments, health and fitness, business etc. TCMA contains a vast amount of valuable knowledge that can be applied however and for whatever purpose the practitioner so whishes. Not all martial artists are fighters, some are actors, dancers, musicians, physicians. These attributes do not make TCMA weak, it’s the actors, dancers etc. pretending to be fighters simply because they study TCMA that make it weak.
TCMA’s relevance lives in the eyes of the practitioner, and it is the practitioners responsibility to represent their practice and philosophy of TCMA truthfully.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1256691]Edited for troll[/QUOTE]
The FORM and TECHNIQUE that you speak of here, are the same thing dumb a$$. What part of that can’t you get through your thick fu(king skull moron. Quit posting. Come back when you actually study a martial art. Until then go fu(k yourself. If you had actually ever studied anything you wouldn’t have taken so many shots to the head, your reading comprehension sucks. I’m done trying to explain sh!t to you it’s quite obvious you don’t have a very high IQ. So don’t bother replying, Your nothing more than a delusional, self important, MMA fanboy, cynical and depressed troll and I’m done with your ignorant a$$.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1256694]The FORM and TECHNIQUE that you speak of here, are the same thing dumb a$$. What part of that can’t you get through your thick fu(king skull moron. Quit posting. Come back when you actually study a martial art. Until then go fu(k yourself. If you had actually ever studied anything you wouldn’t have taken so many shots to the head, your reading comprehension sucks. I’m done trying to explain sh!t to you it’s quite obvious you don’t have a very high IQ. So don’t bother replying, Your nothing more than a delusional, self important, MMA fanboy, cynical and depressed troll and I’m done with your ignorant a$$.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be quite lacking in intelligence. The form and a technique are not one and the same. If one has the techniques there is no need to string them together in a predetermined order.
That’s why the effective system have no forms. And that’s why practitioners of the ineffective systems have discussions about which techniques are contained in the forms.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1256695]Edited for trolls.[/QUOTE]
One and the same you retarded fu(k, different methods of cataloging same mode of transmission.
If one has the techniques there is no need to string them together in a predetermined order
It’s done this way as a method of remembering numerous techniques so that they don’t become forgotten, because you can’t always practice a hundred or more different techniques on someone in a training session or even several sessions for that matter. You’re the only ignorant son of a b!tch on here that can’t seem to understand that.
Quit preaching your ignorant dogma fool. You aren’t going to convince me that you’re correct with your flawed and contradictory logic. You don’t have to listen to me or agree with what I have to say that’s your prerogative. So let it be, you’re not my champion and you sure as hell aren’t my teacher
Go dry hump someone else’s leg.
If you want “combat effectiveness” get a GUN! You don’t need bjj, mma or kung fu. Empty hand fighting has ALWAYS been the last resort for self-defense.
Kung fu stands on its own and will survive because it has many things to offer the practitioner from cradle to grave. Combat effectiveness is only one aspect of kung fu’s value.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1256696]One and the same you retarded fu(k, different methods of cataloging same mode of transmission.
It’s done this way as a method of remembering numerous techniques so that they don’t become forgotten, because you can’t always practice a hundred or more different techniques on someone in a training session or even several sessions for that matter. You’re the only ignorant son of a b!tch on here that can’t seem to understand that.
Quit preaching your ignorant dogma fool. You aren’t going to convince me that you’re correct with your flawed and contradictory logic. You don’t have to listen to me or agree with what I have to say that’s your prerogative. So let it be, you’re not my champion and you sure as hell aren’t my teacher
Go dry hump someone else’s leg.[/QUOTE]
Once again, notice how the effective systems don’t have a need to catalog all their techniques and seem to have no trouble remembering all those techniques.
Maybe the ineffective TMA systems need those forms to catalog things because all the practitioners have about the same intelligence level as you.
That would explain why all people like you haven’t been able to figure out how dumb forms are. The ineffective systems are so inbred that they won’t ever be able to figure out that the forms are a waste of time because forms breed more forms which are embraced by even more TMA practitioners who don’t have the intelligence to figure these things out.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1256698]Erased troll job.[/QUOTE]
Loose techniques are still classified as forms. Some TCMA styles, like my Wing Chun, this is all we have. We then link the loose techniques (sanshi) for solo practice (Shadow Boxing) and tear apart again to train on apparatus and on a partner. Once ingrained then we use them in sparring.
Now tell me how is that any different from boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA?
This is the last time I’m explaining it to you. From now on your on ignore.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1256699]Loose techniques are still classified as forms. Some TCMA styles, like my Wing Chun, this is all we have. We then link the loose techniques (sanshi) for solo practice (Shadow Boxing) and tear apart again to train on apparatus and on a partner. Once ingrained then we use them in sparring.
Now tell me how is that any different from boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA?
This is the last time I’m explaining it to you. From now on your on ignore.[/QUOTE]
No, your teachers teach stupid things like Si Lim Tao and then try to convince gullible students that those dumb movements and that stupid pigeon toed stance have something to do with anything that can be used in fighting.
Why do we need (combo) form?
Let’s look at this from the angle of the throwing art. If all you care about is “single leg” or “double legs”, when you fail, you will try it again. If you always stay on the “single move” level, you just keep trying to use the same move over and over, the combo (or form) will have no value to you.
When you use one move to throw your opponent, if he escapes or still remains balance, you will need to use another move to throw him. This is called “combo”. Since not all move will have logical connection to another move, there are combo that are worthwhile to be recorded and be passed down from generation to generation.
The following clip shows 2 combos that you can use to attack your opponent “on the same direction”. The
- 1st combo is when you apply “hip throw” and your opponent escapes, you can use “leg block” to throw him.
- 2nd combo is when you apply “front cut”, your opponent escapes, you can use “sickle hook” to throw him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngH80X-3t8g
If a teacher didn’t teach his students these combo, will his students be able to figure it out by themselves? May be or may be not. If you record these kind of combo into a “form”, it can help the study of the future generation and save them a lot of time trying to figure it out all by themselves.
Is Tae Kwan Do / Han pul a thing of the past? Will there be no kimchi in the near future? https://www.google.com/search?q=korean+food&client=firefox-a&hs=dLN&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Wv5-UrahApS24APkrYHgAQ&ved=0CKkBELAE&biw=1440&bih=807