TA follow up or new thread to look at the feeling or impression that Gongfu in China proper is dead using the following quote from Faux Newbie in another thread:
Faux Newbie wrote:
Reports of the death of kung fu in the mainland had their grain of truth, but now the mainland is just like kung fu everywhere, including the diaspora.
Your thoughts for and against?
What about Gongfu in the West?
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1256517]TA follow up or new thread to look at the feeling or impression that Gongfu in China proper is dead using the following quote from Faux Newbie in another thread:
Your thoughts for and against?
What about Gongfu in the West?[/QUOTE]
To be clear, I don’t think it’s dead. I think that there is the possibility for a tremendous resurgence and revitalization of it, along actual traditional lines, not revisionist ones.
[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1256518]To be clear, I don’t think it’s dead. I think that there is the possibility for a tremendous resurgence and revitalization of it, along actual traditional lines, not revisionist ones.[/QUOTE]
I think for there to be a resurgence, traditionalists are going to have to get their hands dirty and get in the ring.
They have been. Even using the PRC as an example, all those sanshou-muay thai fights and similar that they’ve been pushing, regardless of the starts, they’ve tended to continue them, anyone whose paid any attention to the PRC is aware of how important it is to them and the Chinese people to legitimately be seen as major contenders in business, sports, whatever, and the Taiwanese are no different in this. Some stuff, the two sides are in perfect agreement on.
Outside of China, you have the beginnings of an era where there are more Chinese teachers flexible enough to adapt the culture and teaching of kung fu to be fair to Americans, and American sifus qualified in a way and in greater numbers than previously by contact training unavailable as comprehensively before, at a point where the forms competitions, etc, except at the biggest events, is weakened. It’s likely that some will continue the already existent move to inclusion of fights in mma and kickboxing events, as these are the formats where competition and purses at least exist.
Mind you, it might all go south, but I hope not. I think there is more useful stuff spread out all over in all the kung fu styles than any of us could hope to realize, and I think it would be a shame if it was lost.
[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1256520]They have been. Even using the PRC as an example, all those sanshou-muay thai fights and similar that they’ve been pushing, regardless of the starts, they’ve tended to continue them, anyone whose paid any attention to the PRC is aware of how important it is to them and the Chinese people to legitimately be seen as major contenders in business, sports, whatever, and the Taiwanese are no different in this. Some stuff, the two sides are in perfect agreement on.
Outside of China, you have the beginnings of an era where there are more Chinese teachers flexible enough to adapt the culture and teaching of kung fu to be fair to Americans, and American sifus qualified in a way and in greater numbers than previously by contact training unavailable as comprehensively before, at a point where the forms competitions, etc, except at the biggest events, is weakened. It’s likely that some will continue the already existent move to inclusion of fights in mma and kickboxing events, as these are the formats where competition and purses at least exist.
Mind you, it might all go south, but I hope not. I think there is more useful stuff spread out all over in all the kung fu styles than any of us could hope to realize, and I think it would be a shame if it was lost.[/QUOTE]
I get where your coming from, but some would argue that sanda and TCMA are two different, albeit related, things. Also your speaking of China and their need to compete with the west, but what of the western TCMAers need to keep relevant outside of MMA and Wushu competitions? It’s a fine line. Why study Kung Fu when you can get faster results with MMA? Why Sanda when Muay Thai is more recognized and established? Kung Fu has a stigma of fantasy largely placed on it by Wushu competitions and Hollywood, it just Isn’t looked upon with the same awe as it was 30 years ago. Sanda isn’t the answer IMO it can never compete in it’s current state with MMA. Kung Fu’s fighting tradition needs to come back on a level that can compete with MMA. This is going to call for the inclusion and use of realistic grappling, something that has long been repressed in TCMA.
For me it requires an almost “reverese-engineering” look at the original intention.
Instead of the long, drawn out “performances” in forms and other applications, the flashy designed to attract interest and attention one needs to ask a very simple question:
“What was this arts original intention?”
If then the answer is Personal Life-Protection or protection of other’s wiithin a given village etc then the art should be simple in application and form. No long, flashy forms and movements … just straight to the point applicable and practical Martial Arts.
None of the “Village Performance Arts” which history tells us existed or were added to by martial artists desperate to make a dollar!
But the real, viable and original intention!
traditional gong fu isn’t popular in china because if you choose that path it’s going to be tough for you…not only the training but money wise… i’m sure wushu is more popular because you can earn a few quid preforming :o
also the showy stuff was invented by the people scared of the traditional stuff
So long as an art is still being studied and trained it will never be completely dead, but the popularity and cult status that Kung Fu had in the 1970’s will never return, simply because times change and evolve and Kung Fu is no longer the “trend”.
Many argue that Sanda is not true Kung Fu, however, it takes techniques found in TCMA and categorizes them into a full contact sport version that is similar to other arts who have done the same. Muay Boran to Muay Thai, Old Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ, Fisticuffs to Boxing, ect.
The truth is you will never have more people involved in TCMA, or any martial arts, that want to compete more in Sanda than in forms competitions. It’s just not a reality because most people don’t want to fight full contact.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1256536]
Many argue that Sanda is not true Kung Fu, however, it takes techniques found in TCMA and categorizes them into a full contact sport version that is similar to other arts who have done the same. Muay Boran to Muay Thai, Old Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ, Fisticuffs to Boxing, ect.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly right. I think some could argue the only reason Muay Boran isn’t completely lost to obscurity and Japanese JiuJitsu isn’t totally irrelevant, is because of the sport aspects those arts adopted.
choose your adventure
A)
LOL
or
B)
-ex karate nutjob, creates own style from books
-visit china, kung fu people avoid you/ milk you for certificate
-says kung fu is dead
LOL
There’s a lot of real good kung fu out there if you’re actually looking for it. Sure it’s hard to find if you’re stuck in places like nut-sack Iowa, or Mooseknuckle Wisconsin - but it’s out there, you may just have to travel a bit to find it.
funny thing is… I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.
For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:
[QUOTE=MightyB;1256554]funny thing is… I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.
For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:[/QUOTE]
Which begs the question, is it the style that is dead or it’s practitioners. I’m saying the latter.
the difference between an MMA person and the so called “traditionalist” is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it
the “traditionalist” will argue it isn’t part of his style, isn’t real kung fu, is external and they do “internal”, that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1256555]Which begs the question, is it the style that is dead or it’s practitioners. I’m saying the latter.[/QUOTE]
I’m saying kind’ve sort’ve and neither at the same time.
People not wanting to fight in MMA doesn’t equate the death of the style or practitioners. Depends on where you live. When I lived in the more urban part of my state, MMA was well organized, where I live now - it’s a f**k job designed to make some “promoters” some cash at the fighter’s expense.
That being said, does that make the kung fu or practitioners less because they don’t want to be exploited?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1256556]the difference between an MMA person and the so called “traditionalist” is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it
the “traditionalist” will argue it isn’t part of his style, isn’t real kung fu, is external and they do “internal”, that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc[/QUOTE]
I think the argument has always been about what constitutes a traditionalist. In the old days of the heroes and founders - it was all MMA in their own way using an anything to win attitude.
Nowadays, some Neo Traditionalists are crazy. You have to recognize them as that - take what you can from them, and move on.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1256556]the difference between an MMA person and the so called “traditionalist” is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it
the “traditionalist” will argue it isn’t part of his style, isn’t real kung fu, is external and they do “internal”, that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc[/QUOTE]
being a traditionalist is different from learning traditional kung fu right 
you don’t need to be a mma person just have an open mind 
My Pak Mei and Hung Gar are both alive and well. I knew martial arts were on a downward slope the first time I won a San Shou championship and received a small medal, then looked over and saw the guys that won in forms packing around 3-5 foot tall trophies.
What most of the world has not figured out is that: The people with the most trophies and who are most vocal about their arts often are the “empty teacups that make the most noise”.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1256556]the difference between an MMA person and the so called “traditionalist” is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it
the “traditionalist” will argue it isn’t part of his style, isn’t real kung fu, is external and they do “internal”, that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc[/QUOTE]
and those traditionalists cant speak a word of Chinese.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1256554]funny thing is… I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.
For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:[/QUOTE]
Yes, anyone who doesn’t recognize that online martial arts culture is almost entirely different than in the gyms and schools is probably spending too much time online.
The reason there is so much talk online is that people are filling their time. Not me, of course, other people.