[QUOTE=martyg;1052955]
Where on earth did you get that idea? His forms (depending on which era of his forms you’re talking about) and sticky hands are chiefly an almalgam of Chan Wah Shun related material (tracking though some of Chan’s other student’s versions).
[/QUOTE]
Yes, if you look at Lai Yip Chi (Yip’s sihing under Chan and teacher of Pan Nam) and Chan Miu Yin (Chan Wah Shun’s son) and even Yip’s seniors, like Ng Chung So, you see the 3 forms.
Likewise his luk sao platform was a platform floating around Fatshan, that last I heard was attributed to one of Chan Wah Shun’s students. Most of the other mainland branches used (or continue to use) the more common mainland form of rolling.
The luk sao platform of chi sao was created by YKS and Sum Nung, and taught to Yip Man. You don’t see it in any of the older lineages unless it was recently adopted. You should talk to Rene about his time with Sum.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1052997]The luk sao platform of chi sao was created by YKS and Sum Nung, and taught to Yip Man. You don’t see it in any of the older lineages unless it was recently adopted. You should talk to Rene about his time with Sum.[/QUOTE]
I had at the time, and I remember discussion on the list at the time as well was that the origin of that platform was traced to one of Chan’s students. I should still have it archived somewhere. Likewise we’re in agreement about the mainland systems, that was my point for posting those vids.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1052999]Because Sum Nung called what he taught YKS WCK in honor of his sifu.[/QUOTE]
At first. It was then later changed by him to Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen because he felt it more adequately described the method he taught his students since he considered it a collection of his Wing Chun experience under both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San). This was around '99, several years before he died. And I still remember how some of the YKS/SN guys over here and Canada (I won’t name names) were quick to try and call Rene out for supposedly not respecting Sum Nung’s wishes quick enough when he’s the one who first broke the news over here in the first place. It was ridiculous politics to see them try that, and I can only think it’s because some certain names were a little upset at the relationship he had with his sigung and promoting the family.
[QUOTE=martyg;1052955]a) What’s your source, as you weren’t there. b) The two were reported friends. c) Many of the wing chun people in fatshan reportedly regularly informaly exchanged.[/quote]
yeah exactly. informal exchange. not a formal student. someone else sarcastically said “didnt YKS teach YM everything he knows?” and i said no.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1052997]Yes, if you look at Lai Yip Chi (Yip’s sihing under Chan and teacher of Pan Nam) and Chan Miu Yin (Chan Wah Shun’s son) and even Yip’s seniors, like Ng Chung So, you see the 3 forms. [/quote]
we went over this in depth in the last forum. YKS was the most famous WC practitioner in Fatsan at the time. Many tried to follow his example, but if you look at Chan Wah Shun lineage they released a book in which they show 12 different openhanded forms with 108 movements. you can see the shaolin influence. the movements are very large and big, not the small and tight.
no i do not come from dr. cheung’s line. i have never met him, which is why i was surprised when he, through his own independent research, professed roughly the same ideas that i had. the difference was that he said fung siu ching was probably the one who condensed his WC into the 3 forms, where as i said it was probably YKS.
All the history is great, I love it but what is important is where we are now and how we make ourselves better.
Just because xyz created something, does not mean it can’t be improved. Hmm Cars, Planes, trains, computers…do we look at the orignal creators and say my car is the best as I am Henry Ford’s great grandson?
I have alway thought that YKS and Ip Man communicated a lot on wing chun and developed the Poon Sau platfoam. This does not mean they had all the answers, just a great idea that we can be thankful for. Individuals have developed chi sau since Ip Man’s time I think in deifferent directions.
[QUOTE=martyg;1053010]I had at the time, and I remember discussion on the list at the time as well was that the origin of that platform was traced to one of Chan’s students. I should still have it archived somewhere. Likewise we’re in agreement about the mainland systems, that was my point for posting those vids.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I think you should do some rechecking re the origin of the luk sao platform, and you might just want to drop a line to Robert and Rene – particularly Rene since he talked to Sum (who was involved in its creation).
At first. It was then later changed by him to Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen because he felt it more adequately described the method he taught his students since he considered it a collection of his Wing Chun experience under both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San). This was around '99, several years before he died. And I still remember how some of the YKS/SN guys over here and Canada (I won’t name names) were quick to try and call Rene out for supposedly not respecting Sum Nung’s wishes quick enough when he’s the one who first broke the news over here in the first place. It was ridiculous politics to see them try that, and I can only think it’s because some certain names were a little upset at the relationship he had with his sigung and promoting the family.
Yes, so most of Sum’s students (the ones who trained with him for the greater part of his life) were told they were being taught YKS WCK and continue to call it that.
The bottom line is that pacman is doing what so many have done – and continue to do – SELECTIVELY choosing to listen to those things that portray his own little branch/lineage as having “the real wing chun” and other branches/lineages as being in various ways inferior. And you can always find some brainwashed stooge like Cheung Yung who you can point to as as “authority” for that view.
For decades the YM-centric view dominated (as YM students went forth to make money off of the Bruce phenomena and used “history” as marketing) and people like YKS and Sum were marginalized. Now the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.
[QUOTE=horserider;1053027]What is the reason for the seeming continual attacks on Yip Man by Yuen Kai San grand
students.? [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1053027]For decades the YM-centric view dominated (as YM students went forth to make money off of the Bruce phenomena and used “history” as marketing) and people like YKS and Sum were marginalized. Now the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.[/QUOTE]
I have to throw in my ten pence here too, as Lee Shing was also one of those humble guys who watched the entire UK market get dominated by ‘other’ Ip Man students, and just slipped away into his restaurant with his closest followers. His choice though, and I believe it would have been YKS and SN choice too.
If they were really that concerned, more would have been done for the Wing Chun name whilst Ip Man was still alive imho, and you have to remember that Ip Man was controlling nothing but his teaching. The committe of the Athletic Association are the true culprits of any marginalisation that occurred, so that’s where any anger should be concentrated rather than at fellow brothers of WCK!
This is all old hat too :rolleyes: so really has nothing to do with our future as a family.
As for the ‘luksau’ being created by Sum and YKS, I have yet to see the evidence that this is true. And I presume you mean (phonetically) looksau? Rotating Arm?
If you claim to be descended from the creators if this particular interactive platform, can you name the postures involved in it’s basic structure?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1053035]
As for the ‘luksau’ being created by Sum and YKS, I have yet to see the evidence that this is true. And I presume you mean (phonetically) looksau? Rotating Arm?
If you claim to be descended from the creators if this particular interactive platform, can you name the postures involved in it’s basic structure?[/QUOTE]
Luk sao is the chi sao platform that uses tan/fook, bong/fook. The older branches of WCK, like Gu Lao and Yik Kam, etc., use the huen platform (that YKS also retains) or a touch-and-go platform (like Pan Nam). I am not saying that the luk sao didn’t exist prior to YKS (it is a part of the Gu Lao 40 point curriculum) but just not as a chi sao platform.
I don’t make any claim to being of the YKS lineage. But the history of the development of the luk sao as a chi sao platform is clear – you don’t see it in any lineage prior to YKS/SN, but only see if after the YKS/SN/YM collaboration, and Sum, who was meticulous in attributing the various elements in his curriculum (like that came from Cheung Bo and this from Fok Bo Chuen and that from Fung Siu Ching) was clear as to where the luk sao platform came from.
The question is for you T or anyone else. You just stated you see the platform in YKS/SN/YM but not before.
I ask you to explain then why is the rolling clearly shown in the Chum Kui form Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?
It is far more likeley the Luk Sao platform was introduced in some fashion at NG Chung So’s school an then others went on to play with it /add to it etc. There are several 3rd party accounts of all the involved Yip,YKS, YC being at ,training learning swapping at Ng school which was at Yui Choi’s Opium House.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1053070]The question is for you T or anyone else. You just stated you see the platform in YKS/SN/YM but not before.
I ask you to explain then why is the rolling clearly shown in the Chum Kui form Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?
It is far more likeley the Luk Sao platform was introduced in some fashion at NG Chung So’s school an then others went on to play with it /add to it etc. There are several 3rd party accounts of all the involved Yip,YKS, YC being at ,training learning swapping at Ng school which was at Yui Choi’s Opium House.[/QUOTE]
There is no doubt that there was much sharing in the Foshan WCK community.
Many people, like Yui Choi, in lots of lineages have adopted the luk sao platform into their curriculum (without attribution). As you point out, Ng Chung So was a contemporary to YKS and Sum Nung, and was close to Yip. YKS was in the same generation as Leung Jan, and so would have been Ng’s senior – and in Chinese culture would not have “learned” from Ng, it would be the other way round.
And, as I said, fortunately we had Sum – who was there – and told us how it was developed.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1053077]There is no doubt that there was much sharing in the Foshan WCK community.
Many people, like Yui Choi, in lots of lineages have adopted the luk sao platform into their curriculum (without attribution). As you point out, Ng Chung So was a contemporary to YKS and Sum Nung, and was close to Yip. YKS was in the same generation as Leung Jan, and so would have been Ng’s senior – and in Chinese culture would not have “learned” from Ng, it would be the other way round.
And, as I said, fortunately we had Sum – who was there – and told us how it was developed.[/QUOTE]
interesting post, but YKS was at the same generation as Chan Wah Shun, not Leung Jan
T I am a bit surprised by your belief that what Sum said is true and factual.
On what evidence should we accept Sum’s word as fact? Being old and being good at WC are hardly grounds to believe in some ones infallible accuracy?
Lun Kai and Kwok Fu said YKS was always trying to steal Yips dummy techniques. Aren’t they just as believable as Sum? Even more so since you have 2 people telling the same story instead of one?
Leung Ting in his book printed some of Sums written account of Yip Man. It was to say the least at great odd’s with Yips History even according to 3rd parties Yui Kay, who was also there and Lee Man who was there too?
You still did not explain the rolling as part of the Chum Kui of Ng. Why does is it there in a form predating YKS/SM when you say YKS/SM invented it?
On what basis do you accept Sum Nung word as gospel and while there is at least as much if not more evidence pointing in other directions?
Also you and anyone else that says YKS and Leung Jan were the same generation at the least wrong and at worst guilty of trying to reinvent history.
Depending on dates of death YKS was no more than 10 to 15 years old when Leung Jan died. Other dates of Leung Jans death would place YKS at just a couple of years old if he was born before LS death at all. In no way were they the same generation.
Age doesn’t necessarily equate to generations in a martial arts family sense.
If we start from the Red Boat, the likes of Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching are the same generation, assuming their teachers are the same gen. (Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam). So that would put Chan Wah Sun and YKS in the same gen. Hence Yip Man and Sum Nung would be the same gen.
Yet Lun Gai, Kwok Fu were similar in age to Sum Nung …
Everyone agrees that there was a lot of informal sharing, so who can really say who started what practice and with whom?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1053063]Luk sao is the chi sao platform that uses tan/fook, bong/fook. The older branches of WCK, like Gu Lao and Yik Kam, etc., use the huen platform (that YKS also retains) or a touch-and-go platform (like Pan Nam). I am not saying that the luk sao didn’t exist prior to YKS (it is a part of the Gu Lao 40 point curriculum) but just not as a chi sao platform.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I can see your point but have to ask; why do you think the looksau is ‘part of’ the chisau ‘platform’?
Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you say again, but personally I would refer to both as being part of an ‘interactive’ platform as they both develop different attributes.
FWIW the tan/fook & bong/fook combination is not all that is contained in, what I know as, looksau. I asked for postures (names of two-handed postures) not the term of each hands seed. But this does help me understand where you’re coming from I think. It’s all good, just very different from what I know.
