Hi RonH,
Thank you for your reply. 
That was how I interpreted your comments, but I wasn’t sure. I agree with you and did not intend to imply that tools are not useful or of benefit if my comments appeared to assert that view. I tend to view principles and phenomena from as wide a context as possible and sometimes this may make it appear that I do not appreciate the the other contexts in which principles apply.
When I read your response, I read it as a big “What?” and was trying desperately from letting the crept in smile get any further than just being a bit there.
Scott’s Truth:"It is not necessary for you to accept my comments out of hand. They are easily testable by anyone and will be demonstated to be true according to ones own experience. If one attempts to apply these principles and they do not work, it is because of their limited skill level and understanding of the principles. Under this circumstance just keep them in mind until your skill level and insight increase and then try again. Eventually, they will be proven a valuable part of your MA knowledge base."
Scott’s Communication Technique: (easily testable by anyone and demonstrated to be true according to ones reading of any of Scott’s posts)
Spray a whole lot of highfalutin words at the subject, with words like Truth and Principles (capitalized of course) liberally mixed in, implicitly establishing his Above position, and Hope to enlighten us lesser beings, whether we can Understand it or not, because maybe (probally not) someday we to can share the View from Scott’s Position.
Thank you Scott, for your attempt at listening to the best of your current ability. Perhaps sometime in the future you will be able to read this post and see within it my Honest attempt help you through this common sticking point shown as an intellectual over-reliance on Wisdom usually seen in Librarians, not MAs who can crank out 3 sets of 15 Hanging Leg Raises. If you can’t, “just keep them in mind until your skill level and insight increase and then try again.”
Mrs. Irwin!!!
spiralstair, is throwing spitballs at me!!
Hi spiralstair,
I was raised in a family of scholars. I was taught to speak, write and behave in this manner. To me this is everyday language. In my family this behavior is considered courteous. It is not a means of lording intelligence over anyone, it is the way I speak and write because I was raised to do so. I do not criticize you or anyone else for not using big or wise sounding words, why be critical of me because I do? Your attitude appears intolerant of someone who is different than you! Mine is not!
I apologize if you are offended by my writing style. I might point out that the “spitballs” that Fu Pow and I were throwing contained substance pertinent to the thread while yours have contained personal slights. Are we now reducing the conversation to the 5th grade? If so you can play by yourself. I have not returned your slights with slights. If you persist in behaving in such a manner you will only continue to embarrass yourself and of course further demonstrate my point of, The pot calling the kettle black! Only in this case the kettle is only a light grey while the pot is midnight black!
You have chosen to engage in the conversation and I have responded. When pushed some walk away; some push back. I don’t mind pushing back from time to time. What you have received is a consequence of your own 8th grade behavior. I merely pointed out, in a courteous manner, the inconsistency of your attitude . You chose to respond with greater hostility and further insult. Your last three posts have in succession gone down the “spiralstair” towards more childish behavior. I have not respond in kind you may have noticed.
I have not played your childish game. I have merely clarified my point regarding push hands with greater detail and pointed out your current behavior is identical to the behavior you have criticized. You appear to be attempting to characterize my comments according to a certain pattern. You have missed the pattern where I MIRROR the behavior that is presented, albeit with bigger more wise sounding words .
In other words, I return what is served. I do not start it and I do not reduce the conversation by resorting to greater insults, but I am happy to participate!
You have been caught in the web of your own hypocrisy. I understand that can be embarrassing. You criticize what you consider my “LORDING” behavior. You have received comments in the form of mirroring behavior in return. You seem to be willing to detail what YOU consider to be the character flaws of others, but cannot seem to perceive your own character flaws. Since you felt free to detail the flaws of others, to avoid hypocrisy, you must allow others the freedom to treat your character flaws with the same directness. Otherwise it is YOU that appears to be lording YOURSELF over others!
Making mistakes in judgment is part of life. It is how we learn. None of us escape without making mistakes and embarrassing ourselves. Let it go and learn a bit more humility.
Try to have a better weekend by letting it go now!
Hello Scott,
Maybe a little off topic what your view on strength from flexibilty pertaining to martial arts. Resistance type stretching how it benifits, stretches and well strengthen the muscles?
If this is not the right thread please feel free to PM me, BUT maybe this has some internal strength built into the strength from flexibilty?
Garry
Hi John,
There is a form of stretching protocol that uses resistance. It must be used judiciously to avoid injury. It is not necessary to practice in my opinion and does not provide any significant benefit. Others may disagree, but my experience has not demonstrated any significant “extra” benefit. Some have suggested it allows one to develop flexibility quicker. Since that is not a goal of mine I consider that an insignificant benefit.
I consider flexibility as helping to prevent injury rather than as a means of increasing strength, although a certain amount of flexibility is necessary in order to obtain optimal strength. Flexibility without some muscular strength may also compromise the integrity of a joint making it more prone to injury. Tight/stiff muscles are subject to a greater frequency of cramping and strains and exceedingly tight muscles are subject to greater frequency of tearing during muscular effort, especially the muscular effort that is a result of muscular contraction against the stretching force that occurs in MMA encounters.
Thanks!
Ooops! Sorry Garry, I addressed you as John!!:o
I have replied to so many threads today I am getting confused, LOL!!:eek:
I’ll get back to you later tonight!
hehehe Im john only on Thursday nite!!
QUOTE=Scott R. Brown: The pot calling the kettle black! Only in this case the kettle is only a light grey while the pot is midnight black!
Whoa Scott, you are getting a little shrill there. No need to shout.
Don’t worry, your trusty Wall Of Words Technique will soon clear the field of all opponents, myself included.
In my previous post I was trying to help you contemplate how others may perceive your posting manner, perhaps my ironic manner was too unkind.
A couple of IMA Principles and Truths to think about:
Invest in Loss
Don’t retreat, don’t resist
And one from my not-so-scholarly family:
Don’t ever brag about how smart you are.
Good Luck
Hi spiralstair,
What you consider shouting I merely consider an alternative to quotation marks.
I do not perceive you or anyone else as an opponent. I am not competing here with you or anyone else.
There is no need to be ironic or indirect with me. It is always best to be direct with what you mean in order to reduce the opportunity for misunderstandings, which will occur anyway but hopefully less often.
I am well aware of how I may come across to some people. It is not really your place to enlighten me although since this is an open forum I respect your freedom of speech rights to say whatever you wish within the rules of the forum. I am not overly concerned with how others perceive me. For each one that is offended by my manner that are others that find value in some of the things I have to share as i receive value from the words of some and consider the words of others nothing special. It is the way of life and I accpet that!
My manner is what it is! Those that know me are not bothered by it, but I understand I may come off as arrogant or pompous to those who are unfamiliar with my personality style. Those that know me well know I am not that way, but they also know I won’t take guff unnecessarily.
Other peoples feelings are not my responsiblity. I am not rude regardless if you consider it so or not. All I have done is mirror your own behavior back to you, but using more appropriate language, that is all. If you find some distaste in that I recommend you reflect upon your own behavior and attitude first and then worry about changing the attitudes or behaviors of others after you have your own house in order.
Someone will always eventually be offended no matter how pleasing to others we try to be. It is best to just be ourselves. Those who will be inclined to be our friends will be so and those who are not are no great loss. They will find others to whom they feel comfortable relating too.
Such is life!
Ford:
No, suggesting that someone reread my posts with an open mind simply might prove useful.. your posts hold a particular point of view substantiated by your prejudiced references.. no different than mine, but.. i do consider your references and concede points worthy of the issues.. i do not suggest that, “If you had an open mind, you’d believe X”, i suggest that there is evidence that supports my assertions, which, evidenced by your responces, you seem to have failed to comprehend or even read..
You said quite simply that ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist..
You cannot prove science said that. Now you are back-peddling because you know you are wrong.
Again, you are making blanket assumptions, unsubstantiated and as if you were an authority on the subject.. By all means, demonstrate that “no such studies exist”.. and try to do it without requesting that i prove they do.. it’s your claim, now..
lol! The fact remains you cannot prove your point. If you want to make a point, then prove it. You and I both know that you’re not going to find a scientific study published in a peer-reviewed journal that measures increase in martial arts ability by your concepts. No matter how much back peddling you do, it won’t change the truth. You lied. You made statements you can’t prove. And now as a testament to your character, you are trying to put the burden of proof on me. Sad.
That is a bit of a reach, i was not the “first” to initiate conflict.. you entered a dialogue with condescending assertions, blanket unsupported statements, and statements contradicting previously identified reliable sources.. basically, looking for conflict.. you got it and now you whine?
So sad, Bob. The funny thing is that you probably believe this.
If you had come in here to discuss the differences in our understandings rather than asserting “bad information” or “dis-information” perhaps we would have had a more rational discourse.. i didn’t “attack” you, perceive it as you will.. your insecurities are not my issue.. Really, “absolutely false claim”, could you please back that up?.. and, rather than “take exception”, i find it more beneficial to dialogue and find out what is most beneficial to my own goals..
I back it up with fact that you can’t support said claim. Can you? I’m waiting for that study that proves your assertion that connective tissue proves to be a higher, more useful tool for martial artists.
Again, we both know you can’t. Prove me wrong. Prove your claim correct.
It’s quite simple, Bob. Prove your claim. If you can’t, then please admit that the claim was based off your interpretation (a layman) of scientific data. Can you even point to studies where it states that connective tissue training is more important than resistance training in “athletes” in general? That would at least be something.
Good thing this conversation never happened:
Adam: “Hey Eve, we’re fully functional, bipedal beings, wanna go for an upright walk on only two of our limbs?”
Eve: “No Adam, there hasn’t been a peer reviewed study yet that proves we can do that, so let’s not even imagine it. I mean look around, all the other animals are on all fours, so let’s stay down on the ground.”
Adam: “Yeah, good thinking Eve, someday scientists will arrive and explain the world to us, one little reductionist bit at a time, so why bother investigating anything till then. If it ain’t in a book or article, it can’t be real.”
Eve: “O.K. Adam, but let’s take a bite of that fruit while we’re waiting.”
I’m still waiting to see someone flex their connective tissues…
[QUOTE=spiralstair;710473]Good thing this conversation never happened:[/QUOTE]
As cute as that comment was, there’s a difference…
I can get up and walk across the room. There may be a debate on how, exactly, ambulation is driven (e.g. neural impulse, motor reaction, etc.), but the ability to walk is easily demonstrated.
I want to see someone flex their connective tissue, so they can show me how it’s under their conscious control to employ it’s alleged “strength” in applications of power/resistance.
The fact that connective tissue doesn’t move under conscious control may make this a bit difficult, but that’s the point…
[QUOTE=spiralstair;710473]Good thing this conversation never happened:
Adam: “Hey Eve, we’re fully functional, bipedal beings, wanna go for an upright walk on only two of our limbs?”
Eve: “No Adam, there hasn’t been a peer reviewed study yet that proves we can do that, so let’s not even imagine it. I mean look around, all the other animals are on all fours, so let’s stay down on the ground.”
Adam: “Yeah, good thinking Eve, someday scientists will arrive and explain the world to us, one little reductionist bit at a time, so why bother investigating anything till then. If it ain’t in a book or article, it can’t be real.”
Eve: “O.K. Adam, but let’s take a bite of that fruit while we’re waiting.”:D[/QUOTE]
ROFLMAO…
Greetings..
Ford: Back so soon?
You cannot prove science said that. Now you are back-peddling because you know you are wrong.
Read the links i’ve posted.. then, try to respond to the questions put to you..
lol! The fact remains you cannot prove your point. If you want to make a point, then prove it. You and I both know that you’re not going to find a scientific study published in a peer-reviewed journal that measures increase in martial arts ability by your concepts. No matter how much back peddling you do, it won’t change the truth. You lied. You made statements you can’t prove. And now as a testament to your character, you are trying to put the burden of proof on me. Sad.
Yep, i made a statement.. it stands until YOU prove it incorrect.. you have not done so, and won’t..
So sad, Bob. The funny thing is that you probably believe this.
No, “sad” is your belief that your reply has any substance..
Again, we both know you can’t. Prove me wrong. Prove your claim correct.
Here’s the deal, i made a statement.. backed it up with linked references.. and, since it didn’t conform to your beliefs, you challenged it.. now, it is the challenger’s obligation to defeat the claim.. and, as always, i wait patiently.. You have spread more unfounded claims in your replies than any you suggest i have.. and, when asked to back them up, you ignore or shift the responsibility..
YiLiQuan1: Flex the connective tissue? you,ve truly missed the point.. please, and i’m being sincere, reread the links already provided.. the strength and benefit is from understanding the relationship between CTS and Neuro-muscular interaction.. recognizing that over-development and over-dependency on muscle mass will have diminished returns compared to a fully integrated system.. a system of energetic coherence..
Be well..
Another lie, Bob? Not a single one of the studies you linked said a single thing about the training of connective tissue being a higher, more useful tool than resistance training for martial artists (or even athletes for that matter). Anything that made even passing mention of athletic performance was merely an article that was usually shilling something.
Do you have any actual studies from peer-reviewed medical journals you can link or even reference that say that training of connective tissue being a higher, more useful tool than resistance training for martial artists (or even athletes for that matter)? You have yet to post one.
Seriously. I’d be interested if you did.
Greetings..
Ford: I will do this, i will respond to your inquiries immediately after you demonstrate the “peer-reviewed” basis for the following statements made by you.. made to contradict statements made by me, statements backed by linked references.. statements that imply that muscle is dominant don’t count.. i need to see proof that the following statements are backed by sound scientific evidence.. it is pointless to challenge someone’s assertions with unfounded claims..
Connective Tissue has NO contractile capability. Whether you are doing a tai chi form or a barbell bench press, it is your muscles that are doing the movement. Your connective tissue is along for the ride. … Connective tissue does just that: connects things. Whether it be connecting muscle to bone or bone to bone, the tissue itself has no contractile capacity at all and is not responsible for movement
You will need to demonstrate that connective tissue has no contribution to movement of the human form and has no contractile capability.. Do that, and i will link you you to some sites and reference you to some enlightening reading that may close the gap in our understandings..
Be well…
For the record, your links:
http://www.intelligentbody.org.uk/PaulLeeReview.php
A review about a conference. No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200212/ai_n9153887/pg_2
Interesting blurb about tensegrity written by Dr Heller (who will show up later in your links). Again, No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200104/ai_n8942183
Interesting peice on tensegrity again. Sounds much like the work done in ART (Active Release Therapy). Again, No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://theamt.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=143
Article from the Association for Meridian Energy that contains highly speculative information about some scientific data. Again,No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://www.hellerwork.com/archives/000923.html
Dr Heller explaining the work he is trying to sell. He even admits in this article that it is not accepted by sports, medicine, biology (but may be if wait a “wee bit longer”.) Again, No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athletic_Performance_Enhancement_Pt_2.htm
Another highly speculative article more about proper structure and alignment than anything. Not even a single reference to a study. And yet again, No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php
This is the best article of the bunch, imo. It was interesting, but yet again even the authors admit they are speculating and even suggest tests that may in the future prove or disprove their hypothesis. No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
And finally (just to save space)… No study pertaining to CTS being a higher, more useful tool for martial artists (or athletes).
So, where in those articles that you posted did you PROVE that this assertion is true: ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist.. ?
If you make a claim, either admit you are speculating or back it up. You have yet to do either. If you speculate that the information in some of those articles is true, that’s great. Do your own thing. Just don’t make false statements saying that science has revealed it to be true.