[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1] If you did not think it special you would have referred to it as hand conditioning instead of “internal” IP. Wake up already cause you are on drugs.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between hand conditioning, for example, basic Makiwara training, and Iron Palm training…
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1032702]I don’t make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.[/quote]
Why doesn’t that surprise me? LOL!
It has nothing to do with looking at the “body as separate”!
However, that is a common mistake made by people who do not have any idea about genuine Internal TCMA methodologies!
That sounds “intelligent” and “wise”, but would also describe a good tennis player.
Let me give you a hint, it is not, the what, but the how and how much further you can take it. 
You forgot, “you can either play tennis or you can’t”…LOL
CHRIST!!!
It is not about “compartmentalized descriptions”, it is about valid, but complex methodologies, that do have an “external” side to them. Read, “Yin and Yang”; read, “Equilibrium” or “Harmony”!!!
It is no good to come here and quote from Chinese Philosophical books, in order to come across as smart, if you cannot see those same philosophies within a TCMA context!!!
Is it true that you “teach Kung Fu”?:eek:
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1032742]I used the word,“internal” for lack of a better term.[/quote]
The “lack of a better term” is a reality, as far as the Internals are concerned, and you probably know that there is a good reason for that.
Very true comments.
You might have also added, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing”.
It seems that many with some Internal TCMA experience, think that they know all there is to know, and use that assumption to make up their minds. The thought that there may be methodolgies out there that they have no idea about never crosses their minds, and is unacceptable in their individual realities. At least that is what it is looking like from where I am sitting.
I guess this is a human characteristic, but nevertheless IMHO I would suggest to everyone to recognize that they do not know everything about Internal TCMAs, and take my word for it that there is a lot out there that WILL surprise them one day, if they are lucky enough to cross paths with people in the know.
Anyway, good post and thanks. Your post stopped me from going totally nuts…LOL!
mysterious power,
here it is in a nutshell. this thread was started to ask if anyone trains internal i.p.,which is another branch or side of i.p. in general. you are correct in saying that it originates as hand conditioning for battle feild scenario. this is why real i.p. only takes a year to obtain, to be able to do some serious damage. a real combat skill can be developed quickly to be used or would have been discarded. now then, comes the temple monks and the taoist monks,who at times fought but mainly kept to themselves,so they had centuries to expand/expound upon the basic principle of hand conditioning and add to it with their “down time” so to speak and make it into an art in and of itself. sub sets of iron palm and poison hand training. some done through “internal” or more esoteric devices.the cosmos palm is an example of internal,kinda meditation only i.p. i personally do not agree with it or see its validity but none the less it is there. some scholars love stuff like that and feel developing it this way is superior. i do not.so alot of time and effort on the part of the monks and recluses have gone into this and some great skills can be developed. jus because mma does not do it, does not mean it isnt legit,internal i.p. is also thought to lend itself to healing more so than external. this is why i subscribe to both schools and do both kinds of training.in internal we have physical exercises but it is mainly"intent" as i said before. i will let a little something out here (and yes i know it sounds weird and iw ill draw flak for it but we do it) we use visualizations. this technique is very old and athletes around the world and especially in russia use it to great benefits. i cant go into the specifics but they work. i have seen some weird sh&%t with my own eyes. not hocus pocus or parlor tricks either but real skills to a very high level,that if you did not see you would not beleive. this to me,along with proper body alignment when striking, is internal i.p.
my 2 cents and i am done on this thread. it was good though. i hope questions were answered.
See, I am kind of in the middle of this, I have seen some weird **** too, hands changing colour while doing IP Qigong for example, but I have also seen a few very good IP guys get their clocks cleaned even after hitting the other guy with their IP hand.
Fact is, all the “internals” in the world won’t help you if you can’t fight.
IP needs a delivery platform and not only that, it needs a skillful delivery platform.
I have seen too many guys "rest: on their IP and pay for it.
I don’t bother with the Internal/external debate, I have seen enough internals in every MA, even those that don’t directly “cultivate” it and I have seen far too many internal guys get their clocks cleaned because they didn’t understand on crucial element of IMA:
You can’t use those skills if you are knocked out.
On the subject at hand though, tricks aside, and we all know that there is too much of that stuff in IP demos, the whole “exotic” face of IP training (poison hand, vibrating palm, hairy beaver palm, shaved beaver palm, etc) is quite simple this:
Can YOU do it in a fight?
If the answer is No, why bother?
If the answer is I don’t know, then find out, FAST, before it is too late.
If the answer is yes, I ask you this, truthfully:
Against whom and under what conditions.
I don’t do a great deal of hand conditioning. I hit the bag,work with the rings and do Sam Bo Ging. I am not an IP expert, nor do I even claim to have IP.
The experience I had was simply working on shock power, and the results surprised and intrigued me. This is why I put it out there, and to connect with like-minded individuals who may have experienced similar things.
Why practice specialized technique? Because it is intriguing. Which makes it an enjoyable pastime. It’s fun.
Why practice Kung-Fu? Because at the end of the day, we enjoy it. We like how we feel when we do it. We like the fact that the strikes are “unconventional,” the movements are unique, and it satisfies something within us on a very personal level.
and for some odd reason, this threatens people like MP..?
oh well…whaddayagonnado…?
Personally, I agree with you Rik, did I need to train IP?
No, not to toot my own horn, but when I was involved in a couple of studies about striking power I was one of the highest rated strikers, and I had the KO’s in the ring and out of it to prove it.
So why did I do it?
I was curious, I felt it was part of “doing Kung fu” and thought it would be cool, LOL !
The fact that it worked made it even better.
There is much to be said about having something “unconventional” in your back pocket, as long as you can use it of course.
The problem is that for far too long, there has been too mch BS associated with IP and IMA, BS that gets exposed way too often.
Of course the problem is that PEOPLE make bogus claims that the training does not, but it’s the training that carries the stigma.
I agree with Paul.
Way too much BS out there about real IP and IV.
not that Im going to be breaking bricks but having the ability to hit hard and not worry about breaking my hands on people is not bad if you seriously are thinking about using your material in the street.
IMO, external IP training is just doing the reps - you may have general form, but its not clear what the other parts are doing as a chain.
Internal IP training is:
Of course, more details, but you guys get the general idea.
Robert,
You are giving it all away brother.:eek::D:eek:
actually you have made great points about the total training that IP and IV entail. It is not about the hands but about the entire structure and how to learn to unify and utilize it.
LOL !
Anything ELSE you wanna add to that Robert?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1032742]I used the word,“internal” for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,“What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?”
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn’t have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn’t get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen various IP practitioners but the one that stood out (good or bad) was a former SiFu of mine.
About 20 years ago, I used to train under SiFu William Chung (recently passed) who referred to himself as the GrandMaster of Hung Gar – so I nicknamed him GMC (Grand Master Chung) He always boasted about his iron palm and made it a point to say that it is the “real” iron palm.
His IP hand wasn’t pretty. The skin was very dry and almost flaky looking while the nails seemed non-existent as they blended in with the rest of the surrounding skin. Aside from that, there wasn’t any noticeable deformations of the bones and it wasn’t twice the size of his normal hand like the Chinese guy on youtube that smashes bricks.
I’ve seen him do a few demos in NYC Chinatown and it was pretty interesting. After some students punched through some pine boards, GMC would say “You don’t need power or speed to break the boards” and then he broke the board in half as if it was done in slo-mo. It almost looked fake but it was definitely real.
One of my favorite things to watch was when he threw pine boards up and then snapped them in half mid-air with his phoenix eye fist. But the cherry on the cake was when he would effortlessly pierce all four fingers through a watermelon and then pick the whole thing up to show the crowd while his fingers were still deeply imbedded in the shell.
Now here’s what I found very interesting; One night we (students) were all gathered in his living room just before training began (I called it the Iron Couch session). I happened to be sitting next to him on the couch and his right arm was extended as it was resting along the back and his IP hand was a few inches away from from by neck/back.
I don’t recall what ticked him off at that moment as he raised his voice toward another student but all I could remember was the intense heat that emanated from his IP hand. My nape and upper back started to sweat and although I was feeling very uncomfortable, there was also a sense of awe.
As much as GMC boasted about his IP and told us stories of how he used it against others to smash patellas, collapse lungs or cause internal bleeding, he also showed regret since he said that he couldn’t feel his newborn grandson when he held him. So, aside from the dry, flaking, fingernail lacking outside, there was also some damage to his nerve endings.
He trained his IP by hitting the medium directly and thrusting into it with his fingers. There was no doubt that his iron palm was effective but I wouldn’t dismiss the fact that it may have also contributed to his deteriorating health conditions.
Hmm, I rambled a bit.
RF,
Thanks for sharing about your Shifu.
There are many roads, but they can all lead to the same destination.
[QUOTE=Rolling Fists;1033006]I’ve seen various IP practitioners but the one that stood out (good or bad) was a former SiFu of mine.
About 20 years ago, I used to train under SiFu William Chung (recently passed) who referred to himself as the GrandMaster of Hung Gar – so I nicknamed him GMC (Grand Master Chung) He always boasted about his iron palm and made it a point to say that it is the “real” iron palm.
His IP hand wasn’t pretty. The skin was very dry and almost flaky looking while the nails seemed non-existent as they blended in with the rest of the surrounding skin. Aside from that, there wasn’t any noticeable deformations of the bones and it wasn’t twice the size of his normal hand like the Chinese guy on youtube that smashes bricks.
I’ve seen him do a few demos in NYC Chinatown and it was pretty interesting. After some students punched through some pine boards, GMC would say “You don’t need power or speed to break the boards” and then he broke the board in half as if it was done in slo-mo. It almost looked fake but it was definitely real.
One of my favorite things to watch was when he threw pine boards up and then snapped them in half mid-air with his phoenix eye fist. But the cherry on the cake was when he would effortlessly pierce all four fingers through a watermelon and then pick the whole thing up to show the crowd while his fingers were still deeply imbedded in the shell.
Now here’s what I found very interesting; One night we (students) were all gathered in his living room just before training began (I called it the Iron Couch session). I happened to be sitting next to him on the couch and his right arm was extended as it was resting along the back and his IP hand was a few inches away from from by neck/back.
I don’t recall what ticked him off at that moment as he raised his voice toward another student but all I could remember was the intense heat that emanated from his IP hand. My nape and upper back started to sweat and although I was feeling very uncomfortable, there was also a sense of awe.
As much as GMC boasted about his IP and told us stories of how he used it against others to smash patellas, collapse lungs or cause internal bleeding, he also showed regret since he said that he couldn’t feel his newborn grandson when he held him. So, aside from the dry, flaking, fingernail lacking outside, there was also some damage to his nerve endings.
He trained his IP by hitting the medium directly and thrusting into it with his fingers. There was no doubt that his iron palm was effective but I wouldn’t dismiss the fact that it may have also contributed to his deteriorating health conditions.
Hmm, I rambled a bit.[/QUOTE]
I don’t normally mentioned this but I have heard stories about Master Chung and his IP from John Springer and the stories struck me in a profound way.
Here was a man that truly suffered for his art.
I recall being told that he tended to tell his students NOT to take up IP in his later years, was that correct?
RIP GM Chung.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1032995]LOL !
Anything ELSE you wanna add to that Robert?
:D[/QUOTE]
Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!
There’s more, but I don’t wanna step on any toes here! 
[QUOTE=chusauli;1033020]Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!
There’s more, but I don’t wanna step on any toes here! :)[/QUOTE]
recalls russian redheaded stripper ninjas
[QUOTE=chusauli;1033020]Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!
There’s more, but I don’t wanna step on any toes here! :)[/QUOTE]
Robert,
there is such a plethora of crap out there that is put forth by pseudo masters that it is so refreshing to know that you have understanding of the concepts.
But then I would think you and certain others would have these concepts as you have really trained them and not just tried to google them like so many others.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1033017]I don’t normally mentioned this but I have heard stories about Master Chung and his IP from John Springer and the stories struck me in a profound way.
Here was a man that truly suffered for his art.
I recall being told that he tended to tell his students NOT to take up IP in his later years, was that correct?
RIP GM Chung.[/QUOTE]
He might have tried to dissuade us from learning IP but I can’t be 100% on that. He did complain about lacking feelings in his hand but he also boasted about its effectiveness on a regular basis. GMC was not the humble type of teacher but he was very unique. Equally as impressive as his IP were his bridge hands. His upper body was solid and you could pretty much hang off his extended arms.
I joined his school back in 1990 and was there for about 1.5 - 2 years. Joining was by referral or from his son Philip who used to teach at Middlesex County College and scouted any potential new students.
When joining GMC’s school, you were given 2 options:
I don’t know if anybody took option #2.
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1033016]RF,
Thanks for sharing about your Shifu.
There are many roads, but they can all lead to the same destination.[/QUOTE]
You’re welcome Dale. I agree that many roads can lead to the same destination but I also believe that the old, longer routes are safer than the newer shortcuts that are becoming increasingly popular today.
RF,
Very true many of the youth today want to have things now versus forging the body, the mind and the spirit on the slow and steady method of progress.
Thanks for sharing.
I never got to met GMC, and I regret it.
Be well,
Dale