Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms…but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect…etc. I’m sure there are some differing interpretations, and I’d like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.
[QUOTE=AllstarShaolin;938283]Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms…but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect…etc. I’m sure there are some differing interpretations, and I’d like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.[/QUOTE]
many of the gross movements within forms have more than one application.
after all, form is generally the overview of the technique or motion, with variation according to distance, height and so on being the other factor that determines shape of the technique when actually applied.
Having said that, a for instance would be something like a low wing arm can be used to strike the belly or to deflect a kick.
A dropping back fist at 45 angle can be used to clear a grab or to strike a collar bone or to rake strike at the face.
and so on.
When i was being taught, we would be shown only one application and our understanding of that technique was revealed when we could demonstrate alternates that were logical applications of the same technique.
not to say you want to use a hammer to do a screwdrivers job, but a hammer can pull nails out as well as push them in. 
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In 2002, I authored a two-part article series on Dahong and Xiaohong applications. See The Big and The Small: Self-Defense Techniques of Shaolin Red Fist, part 1 is in our 2002 January/February Shaolin Special and part two is in our 2002 March/April issue.
David is totally correct in saying that many Shaolin techniques have more than one application. In fact, almost all of them have multiple interpretations. It all depends upon context. That’s something I was attempting to express with The Big and The Small. I had another piece that I was developing on Jibengong that was similar, but never saw the light of publication. It was akin to Shaolin Shi Ba Shi Jibengong By Scott Jeffery in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (especially since it featured our master Shi Decheng) but it got into the variations. I shot it on Song mountain - it was the same shoot as The Eight Section Brocade: Qigong From Shaolin Temple in our 2001 May/June issue. Someday I should go back and look at those pics since the piece is still viable. They are from back in the day when I shot prints.
True depth of forms cannot be learned, only experienced. Practice your forms until you’re sick of them, then practice them more until you’re numb to them, then practice them more until you fall in love with them again. When you get to this point you’ll be able to move with a relaxed empty mind. They’ll become a meditation and that’s when the true beauty will reveal itself. It may take you a few years, maybe a few decades to get to this level, it’s up to you.
Not trying to sound mystical but the truth is, is the kind of depth you’re looking for isn’t in a book or DVD and no real master is just going to give you the answer. It can only be achieved through time and repetition.
Ah but if you really practice that hard…
…you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It’s about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.
To disregard history is foolish.
The kid just wants some application.
This is the problem with CMA. Ask how to block a low roundhouse and you get a 6-week course on Metaphysics.
Real fighting is pretty basic. All that extra room for interpretation is left by the holes in your teacher’s knowledge.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;938650]…you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It’s about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.
To disregard history is foolish.[/QUOTE]
Gene has iron crotch’d the correct !
[QUOTE=AllstarShaolin;938283]Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms…but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect…etc. I’m sure there are some differing interpretations, and I’d like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.[/QUOTE]
No, because it doesn’t work like this, the very question shows that there is a fundamental misunderstanding.
All movements in Chinese martial arts are both offense and defense at the same time. You have to know not only the body mechanics of a style but also the strategy and theory of how to move within a style. Once this is understood, the applications are a NATURAL expression of the “rules” of a style.
There are million of applications possible because of this.
IF you know WHY you are doing the movements of a style, then the postures in the forms allow you to express the style’s body mechanics and strategies in the most efficient and effective way. If you fail this, you get clobbered during self defense.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;938672]The kid just wants some application.
This is the problem with CMA. Ask how to block a low roundhouse and you get a 6-week course on Metaphysics.
Real fighting is pretty basic. All that extra room for interpretation is left by the holes in your teacher’s knowledge.[/QUOTE]
But that’s the point:
If one knows how to do the forms, then the applications appear naturally.
There is no such thing as “do this against that” because the limits your mind and make you “perform” like a dancer and not a natural martial artist.
It’s an art, like a painter paints on canvas, but you do it with human movements.
No one has to teach you how to eat, it just follows from you being used to moving your body.
The moves from any action can be used in actuality as fighting applications from fixing a car to opening a door to go to the bathroom to sit on a toilet, etc.
I have used each of these actions in a class room setting to show how they can be used in application during self defense.
That’s actually more along the lines of how I operate. I have a bad memory for things so my MA learning consists of understanding how to move, where and how to strike etc. rather than remember specific apps for specific situations.
Because of that I couldn’t say what I would do in any given situation until it happens, and then my response might not even consist of moves I actually learned. It could be something I saw or just made up on the spot.
I traing Kenpo for a lot of years but don’t really remember any specifics, forms or move sequences but I understand how they work so I can do something similar. It’s hard for me to explain but I just do what I do and it’s all based on all the years of training and different styles of Kung Fu and Karate.
When it comes to specifics I like to ask How would you use that move? or What would you do with it?
I keep thinking how to put this into words but I always learn by example. I do that with everything, not just MA.
I look at examples and see how something is done, then I get a feel for a ruleset based on the examples and then use the ruleset to go beyond the examples. Does that make sense to anyone?
[QUOTE=GeneChing;938650]…you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It’s about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.
To disregard history is foolish.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree, “keys can be found in published materials”, but not true depth.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;938672]The kid just wants some application. [/QUOTE]
The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn’t he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn’t ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn’t know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me?
Articles and written material are fine for intelectual learning but knowing the history or tradition of an art does nothing for application. It all boils down to Biomechanics and efficiency. If you are learning intelectualy you miss the way because the way is about experienceing not “learning” KC
Yes I have a sifu, yes he teaches applications, yes there are multiple variations.
So I guess trying to study other interpretations is a ridiculous task. It seems everyone thinks documentation of this information is useless?
Frankly I’m stunned by the fact that so many people do not think it’s worthwhile to investigate other interpretations besides what your sifu tells you. Simply by the fact that everyone acknowledges there are alternate ways to do things…I’m really confused why there are not more materials to study these variations and how a person mentally and physically executes traditional forms.
At the same time…I don’t know how you can not have a focus to each technique when executing a form. Everyone must be a genius because I certainly can’t think of 10 applications at a time when I’m in the midst of each technique…and if you’re not thinking of what you’re trying to achieve as you are executing a technique in a form…then I don’t think you’re really doing it properly…you’re probably just doing an exercise then. Yes it teaches you how to move, not just how to perform these techniques…But if you you’re just performing it without intention then you really are missing a lot in my opinion.
Well thanks to Gene for offering some of the materials that I’m looking for. I’ll be ordering those shortly.
If anyone has any more advise about where to find additional materials to study Shaolin forms in depth I would greatly appreciate it…not only in executing techniques, but the philosophy behind different forms. For example Da Hong Quan and Mei Hua Dao have a vastly different soul, rhythm, flow…whatever you prefer to call it. I’m interested in investigating this aspect as well and how these type of things enhance the techniques being executed.
Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help a kung fu brother improve himself.
[QUOTE=Shaolin;938796]The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn’t he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn’t ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn’t know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me?[/QUOTE]
Asking your teacher is the answer as far as I am concerned. Each system will have its own variation of its application. I will use a personal experience as an example. I learned Gung Li Chuan in Eagle Claw (Kung Lek Kuen), I also learned it in my current long fist school as well as a version that Yang Jwing Ming had. There are a variety of different applications that I have learned for this form depending on the style. This is due to the fact that some movements have been changed to suit the particular style.
I actually spoke to Gene last Taiji Legacy regarding Xiao Hong Quan and its application. There was a strike where you step into ding bu. He said that he has seen a variety of strikes there. One being double palm, the other being double fist (one I know of). In another red fist form I know, the subtle movement changes a technique from an evade and groing strike to a shiua chiao take down.
So it is best to ask your sifu what its primary application is based on that system. It could change the flavor of your form altogether should you start mixing in other systems applications. Not a bad thing though.
Every move in a form can have various applications, a down ward block can block a kick, a punch, a grab, it can be a hammerfist strike, a sweep, a arm break, etc,etc.
Every strike can be a block and every block a strike, what can look like a striking application can be a grappling one and a grappling one a striking one.
No issues in people searching out what application works bets for them, that’s how it has ALWAYS been done anyways.
[QUOTE=Shaolin;938796]The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn’t he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn’t ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn’t know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me?[/QUOTE] He didn’t ask YOU to tell him, he just asked for resources.
Afterall, I doubt you carried water buckets for your sifu to earn the right to learn the applications. You signed off on a $50/month check and bought them like every other guy here.
[QUOTE=Shaolin;938793]I completely agree, “keys can be found in published materials”, but not true depth.[/QUOTE]
depth of understanding can only come from practice of that which you are taught.