[QUOTE=SevenStar;1026310]youknowwho - would you keep or eliminate stance training?[/QUOTE]
Of course not. The Longfist 8 basic stance (horse, golden rooster, bow-arrow, striking tiger, empty, monkey, twisting, 7 stars) are the building block for all MA styles. I have eliminated the “twisting stance (stealing step)” because it has no combat value.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026315]Of course not. The Longfist 8 basic stance are the building block for all MA. I have eliminated the “twisting stance (stealing step)” because it has no combat value.[/QUOTE]
stance = footwork
footwork is learned DOING THE TECHNIQUES
to learn footwork without context is folly IMHO
and strangely, because I usuallly agree with youknowho I disagree on the stealing step, it is the “back step” in wrestling and the set up for throws
how does youknowwho do shuai chiao without the back step? 
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026315]Of course not. The Longfist 8 basic stance (horse, golden rooster, bow-arrow, striking tiger, empty, monkey, twisting stance, 7 stars) are the building block for all MA styles. I have eliminated the “twisting stance (stealing step)” because it has no combat value.[/QUOTE]
its for hip throws
i think stance training is useless today because traditionally youre supposed to be doing it with weights.
old kung fu sayings about horse stance building leg strength , they were talking about holding 100 to 300 pound weights in horse stance.
if u dont do horse stance with weights dont do it at all
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1026311]We warm up “shadowing” the techniques, ie in the air
Then we do them on focus mitts, shields, bags, small woodland creatures, you know
Then we drill them with people… random strangers off the street
Then we rinse and repeat[/QUOTE]
right, but apps / techniques from the forms or is it more “glorified kickboxing” style?
like the guys you saw doing the takedown in their form, though they were oblivious to it - would you have them working the segment of the form in the air, then on each other? I guess what I’m wondering is, since you’ve said that what you teach comes straight from the forms, do the students know that? do they know that technique x is section x from the xxx form?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026315]Of course not. The Longfist 8 basic stance (horse, golden rooster, bow-arrow, striking tiger, empty, monkey, twisting, 7 stars) are the building block for all MA styles. I have eliminated the “twisting stance (stealing step)” because it has no combat value.[/QUOTE]
some SC guys from your line showed me the stealing step as a transition / set up to throws. Why don’t you think it has value?
iron thread.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1026316]how does youknowwho do shuai chiao without the back step? [/QUOTE]
This is a good question. When you spin your body by using your twisting stance (stealing step), your opponent can take advantage on your body rotation. If he spins with you, you will end on the ground with your opponent on top of you.
[QUOTE=bawang;1026317]its for hip throws[/QUOTE]
In order to prevent this from happening, When you apply a “hip throw”, you land your right foot in front of your opponent’s left foot (instead of at the equal triangle position in relate to your opponent’s feet). This way, your opponent will have less chance to sweep you. You then advance your back left foot behind your right foot. Now your left foot is at the proper position (in front of your opponent’s left foot) but your right foot is not. You now move your right foot in front of your opponent’s right foot. When you do that, your waist hold can force your opponent’s body to bend toward his right. This will collapse his body structure so he will have less chance to counter you. Now both of your feet are already on the right spots but you are still facing your opponent and your body hasn’t turned yet. You then turn and apply your “hip throw”. Since your feet are already at the right spots and your opponent’s body has been bent. You have replaced a “twisting stance (stealing step)” by a 90 degree angle footwork and you have reduced your risk to the minimum.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1026319]some SC guys from your line showed me the stealing step as a transition / set up to throws. Why don’t you think it has value?[/QUOTE]
It’s called “evolution (or water down :))”. The “twisting stance (stealing step)” is just a simple “turn” with 90 degree angle footwork. It’s faster and less risky.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1026310]ross - when you drill techniques, are they fight based - like clinch work, slipping, countering, etc. or do you take movements from the forms you know and drill those, or both?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1026318]right, but apps / techniques from the forms or is it more “glorified kickboxing” style?[/QUOTE]
from what I have seen, Dave does both - in other words he has absorbed stuff from non-TCMA sources because they r of value, at the same time I have seen him show stuff directly out of forms, taking the relevant principles and applying them in a “live” context
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1026311]small woodland creatures…[/QUOTE]
starting with raccoons, then beavers, muskrats and finally voles…
[QUOTE=bawang;1026317]its for hip throws
i think stance training is useless today because traditionally youre supposed to be doing it with weights.
old kung fu sayings about horse stance building leg strength , they were talking about holding 100 to 300 pound weights in horse stance[/QUOTE]
I want to weep for joy when I read stuff like this because it just cuts the legs out from underneath those people who think that “old school” kung fu training was about doing your forms and contemplating ur naval…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026325]This is a good question. When you spin your body by using your twisting stance (stealing step), your opponent can take advantage on your body rotation. If he spins with you, you will be end on the ground with your opponent on top of you. In order to prevent this from happening, When you apply a “hip throw”, you land your right foot in front of your opponent’s left foot instead of at the triangle position in relate to your opponent’s feet. This way, your opponent will have less chance to sweep you. You then advance your back left foot behind your right foot. Now your left foot is at the proper position (in front of your opponent’s left foot) but your right foot is not. You now move your right foot in front of your opponent’s right foot. When you do that, your waist hold can force your opponent’s body to bend toward his right. This will collapse his body structure so he will have less chance to counter you. Now both of your foot is already on the right spots but you are still facing your opponent and your body hasn’t turned yet. You then turn and apply your “hip throw”. Since your feet are already at the right spots and your opponent’s body has been bent. You have replaced a “twisting stance (stealing step)” by a 90 degree angle footwork and you have reduced your risk to the minimum. IMO, this is the evolution (or water down :)) version of “hip throw”.[/QUOTE]
good god - a well-thought out analysis in context of TCMA - this man should be bronzed!
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026325]You have replaced a “twisting stance (stealing step)” by a 90 degree angle footwork and you have reduced your risk to the minimum.
[/QUOTE]
hey man stealing step is good sometime cuz its fast, and sometimes hard to see. the 90% footwork is called shuffle step they both are good.
but i think what ur doing is right tho man.if u cant get something to work forget it its no big deal.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1026327]
I want to weep for joy when I read stuff like this because it just cuts the legs out from underneath those people who think that “old school” kung fu training was about doing your forms and contemplating ur naval…[/QUOTE]
if they like navel focusing maybe they can try other esoteric martial excercises too, like taking medicinal opium and demonic possession. its great for self confidence
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026325]
In order to prevent this from happening, When you apply a “hip throw”, you land your right foot in front of your opponent’s left foot (instead of at the equal triangle position in relate to your opponent’s feet). This way, your opponent will have less chance to sweep you. You then advance your back left foot behind your right foot. Now your left foot is at the proper position (in front of your opponent’s left foot) but your right foot is not. You now move your right foot in front of your opponent’s right foot. When you do that, your waist hold can force your opponent’s body to bend toward his right. This will collapse his body structure so he will have less chance to counter you. Now both of your feet are already on the right spots but you are still facing your opponent and your body hasn’t turned yet. You then turn and apply your “hip throw”. Since your feet are already at the right spots and your opponent’s body has been bent. You have replaced a “twisting stance (stealing step)” by a 90 degree angle footwork and you have reduced your risk to the minimum.
It’s called “evolution (or water down :))”. The “twisting stance (stealing step)” is just a simple “turn” with 90 degree angle footwork. It’s faster and less risky.[/QUOTE]
so you do it the way a judo guy does it? not that there’s anything wrong with that…
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1026339]so you do it the way a judo guy does it? not that there’s anything wrong with that…[/QUOTE]
I don’t know any Judo so I can’t comment on it. I think you are talking about “cover step - move one leg in front of the other leg (the opposite of the stealing step - move one leg behind the other leg)” that you move your left foot in front of your opponent’s left foot (while your right foot is still behind of you). You then advance your back right foot, over your left knee, and end in front of your opponent’s right leg. In both “shuffle step” and “cover step”, since your legs are not “crossed”, you will have less chance to be swept.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
This is the traditional “equal triangle” footwork.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/judo-koshi-waza-o-goshi-full-hip-throw/2764076191
This footwork is risky. Your opponent will have perfect “angle” and perfect “distance” to use his left foot to sweep your right leg the moment you land that foot.
I may not be seeing this correctly, but it just sounds like “leg blocking” which was another type of Shuai Chiao footwork?
The “leg blocking” can use the same footwork too. Instead of “crossing” your leg, you land your back foot next to your front foot (no crossing). You can even hop, the moment that you back foot land at the same spot as your front foot, the moment that your front foot land at the spot that you want (it’s like jumping kick that while your left foot is still in the air, your right foot already kick out). This can reduce “1, 2” into just “1” (the CON is you may be over commit).
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026349]The “leg blocking” can use the same footwork too. Instead of “crossing” your leg, you land your back foot next to your front foot (no crossing). You can even hop, the moment that you back foot land at the same spot as your front foot, the moment that your front foot land at the spot that you want (it’s like jumping kick that while your left foot is still in the air, your right foot already kick out). This can reduce “1, 2” into just “1” (the CON is you may be over commit).[/QUOTE]
oh, ok, now I understand
well, truth be known, THIS is how we do now, not the “stylized” with the knee in knee twisted stance. I thought “how can you throw if you don’t turn” but now I see what you are saying
This is actually sambo trick also (to jump)
i would pick sanchin
LOL, I’ll probably get several.
I only get them from the crazies that forget to take their meds. on a daily basis. Nothing says love like a PM of obsenities and poorly scripted wording that makes no sense.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1026343]I don’t know any Judo so I can’t comment on it. I think you are talking about “cover step - move one leg in front of the other leg (the opposite of the stealing step - move one leg behind the other leg)” that you move your left foot in front of your opponent’s left foot (while your right foot is still behind of you). You then advance your back right foot, over your left knee, and end in front of your opponent’s right leg. In both “shuffle step” and “cover step”, since your legs are not “crossed”, you will have less chance to be swept.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
This is the traditional “equal triangle” footwork.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/judo-koshi-waza-o-goshi-full-hip-throw/2764076191
This footwork is risky. Your opponent will have perfect “angle” and perfect “distance” to use his left foot to sweep your right leg the moment you land that foot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqLGjRU2kr0[/QUOTE]
it is also a set up for a sacrifice throw called tani otoshi.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1026350]oh, ok, now I understand
well, truth be known, THIS is how we do now, not the “stylized” with the knee in knee twisted stance. I thought “how can you throw if you don’t turn” but now I see what you are saying
This is actually sambo trick also (to jump)[/QUOTE]
oh, like a jump turn while going into a drop seionage?
Sort of back on topic, here are some of the throws/takedowns we teach
I am sure most will be very familiar to youknowwho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-Rk7q_ZDU0