"If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer..."

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

Only read the opening post …

so parden me if this was said:

The majority of CMA schools don’t train fighters properly because they do not attract students with that mind set. What I mean by that is think of what you would walk in on if you entered the typical Kung Fu school at 8:30 p.m. … maybe students are dressed in Kung FU garb holding horse stance, maybe they are doing forms, and, if you’re lucky, they are doing some very low-intensity, highly co-operative line drills that are complex and awkward.

Now, walk into a boxing gym at 8:30 p.m.. You probbaly have guys working a heavy bag with a trainer spotting, maybe some guys are in the ring sparring with headgear, other guys are hitting the speed bag … these guys are prepairing for battle.

Now, these are two stereotypes but mostly true to the typical school/gym. Take a kid from the boxing gym and put him in the kung fu class and he’ll be bored most likely. Take a kid from the kung fu school and he may work the pads but may be scared to get into the ring… or say his stuff is too dangerous but I think these are the same thing in most cases.

I know in NY though there are several Chinese Art-based schools that have broken this stereotype. For example, boxing gloves, headgear, chest protector, elbow pads, chin guards and cup … these are standard gear and we’ll use some or all of these in every single class. We do no form. We’ve had plenty of black belts come from other schools, train for a day or two and never come back. They’d rather be a big fish in a make believe pond that put up what they have or think they have or were lead to believe what they have.

I respect the boxer: jab, cross, hook, uppercut. So little yet so much.

Then you have 25 forms, 15 weapons, Iron Palm, titanium d!ck, sand foot, etc, etc., etc. and nobody wants to fight.

That’s why I don’t blame the teachers. I blame the students. You see what the hell you’re getting yourself into. everyone is so smart 22 hours out of the day, then they go to a kwoon or dojo and lose all sense of reality and believe the craziest things, except fiction without demanding so proof or experiencing for themselves first hand.

This is a great field we are involved in. It requires no back and forth and lenghtly discourse: put the gloves on and show me.

42

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
[B]I believe it would look a lot like … d r u m r o l l … San Da.

If not geared towards the ring, would probably still be a lot like Chinese Military San Da with slight variations for different styles, as well as more open handed techniques, elbows, chin na, etc.

Why don’t you just try to train your CMA ‘with the same intensity as a boxer’ and find out? Then you could tell us your personal results. [/B]
I can’t if I don’t know how. I started this thread to see how others “train with the same intensity as a boxer,” and apparently nobody knows how. The most I’ve gotten so far is the masters sucked. Saying this is a mixed message would be an understatement.

Sifu Abel, how do you train that makes you so good? Thank you.

43

Re: Only read the opening post …

Origionally posted by EvolutionFist
We do no form.
Then how can you possibly call it a Chinese martial art? It sounds like imitation kickboxing to me.

I’ve put five years of hard work into the chinese martial arts and I’ve about had it. I’m not getting any younger.

44

Hear wa-

this is how Holyfield trains

http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

His methodology is not starkly different from many other professional boxers methods.

Some stuff is diff some is not, but all of us have different attributes and such. the Holyfield prgram is designed specifically for his attributes.

45

Originally posted by HearWa
I can’t if I don’t know how. I started this thread to see how others “train with the same intensity as a boxer,” and apparently nobody knows how.

Well, here’s how I ran my Shuai Chiao class when I had a class to run. Now I just train.

Warm Up: 100 jumping jacks, 100 squats, 60 lunges, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 bicycles, 100 bowling balls, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 flutter kicks.

Belt Cracking: 100 side to side, 50 bottom/top raise, 50 bowing, 50 turning bow.

Forms were done next in 2 minute drills. Usually we’d run through, D. Cut, Forward March, Bowing, Neck Surround.

Next, we would train technique, usually focusing in one or two technique/combos per class for about 30 minutes.

Then we would run drills for about a half hour in 2-3 minute rounds: pummeling, swimming, sweeping drills, jacket wrestling, “ning” drills, etc.

Class would usually end wit free wrestling. We’d go for about 5 3 minute rounds.

Cool down with stance work held 1 minute each to stretch out. The class usually ran for about 2 ½ hours

46

What is a Belt Crack?

47

Re: Re: Re: “If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer…”

Originally posted by Strangler
pad work and heavy bags didn’t exist in ancient China or even in Thailand not long ago. Doing that would turn kung fu into modern kickboxing. Why not train how the anient masters by suing nature and with other people by doing two mans ets, light bare knuckle sparring, push hands, tui shu, etc.? The anient masters of old didn’t get those superhuman abilities by kicking ehavy bags and immitating modern thai boxers.

This is the big problem people are facing today…everyone wants to “train how the masters trained”… 150 years ago, under different circumstances and with different intents, more primitive knowliedge of training, etc. I dunno if it’s a nostalgia thing or what - trying to imitate “masters”.

48

Originally posted by red5angel
What is a Belt Crack?

it’s a shuai chiao thang.

49

and…

50

Originally posted by SevenStar
it’s a shuai chiao thang.
Did you mean thong?:confused:

51

Originally posted by Strangler
true, but they were trained differently than modern sanda/mt people use them. They were lighter and the person hitting them would mvoe around them and not just work on power but cordination, and rhythm. Not to mention they would often hit mroe than one bag at a time as in practising vs multiple opponents.

thai boxers don’t move around the bag? they just stand there and pound away? It sounds like someone on this thread is missing a few clues…

52

Why do you say that I can’t be doing CMA because I don’t do form?

I studied karate for something like 10 to 12 years, the training was mixed equally with sparring, bag work and form. I learned a lot but was young.

I studied Hung Gar and Wing Chun and we mostly did form and some chi sau … no sparring.

Then I studied S Mantis and all we did was chi sau and heavy sparring … learned how to judge a technique, learned what fighting means.

Now I study Hsing-I and Ba Gua but I’m really interested in E-Chuan. Some classes we’ll do one specific section of a form to do internal training, but only do it for like 20 or 30 minutes … this should be done at home a lone.

Most nights we work on a specific concept, say Hsing-I’s wood element. We put the gloves on and drill it. You work up to the intensity that you and your partnet are comfortable with.

For me, this is better than going back and forth across the room doing an emty Hsing-I form. Though, once you have done it for real, against a resisting person, then maybe you can go back and work on some mechanics solo. But the majority of CMA people I know are form collectors. Quite frankly, they’re all pu$$ies.

In the end I don’t care what it’s called or what it looks like (I think I can easily be mistaken for a boxer and am proud of that … though curious to see how the next fight looks on film, there’s ben some changes in me). I get bored talking about it. I’d rather just have a go at it, but at that point 3/4 of ALL martial artist drop out of the conversation or bring up inner peace.

53

Originally posted by Water Dragon
[B]Well, here’s how I ran my Shuai Chiao class when I had a class to run. Now I just train.

Warm Up: 100 jumping jacks, 100 squats, 60 lunges, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 bicycles, 100 bowling balls, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 flutter kicks.

Belt Cracking: 100 side to side, 50 bottom/top raise, 50 bowing, 50 turning bow.

Forms were done next in 2 minute drills. Usually we’d run through, D. Cut, Forward March, Bowing, Neck Surround.

Next, we would train technique, usually focusing in one or two technique/combos per class for about 30 minutes.

Then we would run drills for about a half hour in 2-3 minute rounds: pummeling, swimming, sweeping drills, jacket wrestling, “ning” drills, etc.

Class would usually end wit free wrestling. We’d go for about 5 3 minute rounds.

Cool down with stance work held 1 minute each to stretch out. The class usually ran for about 2 ½ hours [/B]
Now, really, are the forms an indespensible part of that schedule? It seems like they’re thrown in there to keep it at least remotely simular to CMA.

And as far as the form interpretations go, couldn’t you save the time from learning the form, studying the underlying concepts and techniques by joining a martial art without forms that all ready have the techniques readily available?

54

But the majority of CMA people I know are form collectors. Quite frankly, they’re all pu$$ies.

so your teacher is a *****, and your classmates are pussies and all the CMA people you have ever met are pussies? Interesting…

55

Re: Re: Only read the opening post …

Originally posted by HearWa
[B]Then how can you possibly call it a Chinese martial art? It sounds like imitation kickboxing to me.

I’ve put five years of hard work into the chinese martial arts and I’ve about had it. I’m not getting any younger. [/B]

Who says that cma MUST include typical forms work?

56

Originally posted by HearWa
[B]Now, really, are the forms an indespensible part of that schedule? It seems like they’re thrown in there to keep it at least remotely simular to CMA.

And as far as the form interpretations go, couldn’t you save the time from learning the form, studying the underlying concepts and techniques by joining a martial art without forms that all ready have the techniques readily available? [/B]

in shuai chiao, the techniques ARE readily available through forms. They don’t do the long, multi technique forms. SC forms are single technique drills.

57

Originally posted by red5angel
What is a Belt Crack?

A way to train grip breaking, coordination, speed, proper position… belt cracking is a training tool used to help you perfect your movements, in a nutshell.

58

Re: Re: Re: Only read the opening post …

Ziramen Quan has NO forms. I’m pretty sure Yi Quan has no forms.

Are they not CMA?

59

Re: Re: Re: Only read the opening post …

Originally posted by SevenStar
Who says that cma MUST include typical forms work?
I have no idea, I guess it was an assumption based on the evidence of every single Kung Fu school I personally have run into. Go figure.

60

This is a ‘been there, done that’ topic. Yeesh.