If we look at the following 2 clips, it’s easy to see that “In TCMA, you train exactly the same way as you will fight”. Your thought?
and this:
This looks like good fight training. What do you guys think?
Indeed! From The Book Of Five Rings… “You can only fight the way you practice.” ~ Miyamoto Musashi
It’s also in my signature. I added it a few weeks or couple of months or something like that ago. Great book!
I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.
[QUOTE=Raipizo;1262009]I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.[/QUOTE]
With respect the videos posted by ykw are technique practice. Wrestlers do tons of conditioning exercises that have nothing to do with fighting like push ups, sit ups, weight lifting. Boxers do the same. It’s applicable to being durable while sparring either in wrestling or boxing. Much of the conditioning wrestlers and boxers do is done within their sport. The extra stuff I mentioned is done on the side.
[QUOTE=Happy panda;1261995]This looks like good fight training. What do you guys think?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6mtywX7MY[/QUOTE]
I mean no offense, but you did ask so here goes. I think it’s kind of sloppy. If this is the only way they train then it’s a good example of what not to do. They are wearing boxing gloves and trying to perform deflections that are difficult at best with boxing gloves. Some of the deflections the defender was working on are much more effective if there is a grab, hook, or a claw at the end of the movement. This sets up a bridge and strike combo, but with boxing gloves it’s just not going to happen. If they are going to work with big fluffy boxing gloves then they need to train like a boxer. If they want to work on kung-fu then they should use gloves suited to that style of fighting which would allow them to have much more control.
Also, there were no head strikes or kicks. If a person trains that way and they encounter head strikes and kicks then they will be unprepared and get KO’d the eff out. The theme of this thread is train how you want to fight, so if a person wants to fight with pitter patter strikes only to the mid section then their training will serve them well.
Edit: I watched the video again and there were a few head strikes, so in one sense I was wrong to say there were no head strikes. However, in another sense I was right since the punches that were thrown to the head landed.
[QUOTE=Raipizo;1262009]I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.[/QUOTE]
I’m either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don’t do enough fight training.
This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.
The first two clips that YKW put up are Fight Training.
Happy Panda’s clip shows what happens when TCMAist start the path towards fight training. They are still trying to fight within the confines of their system and training. But it doesn’t look good yet, and as Golden points out, they should adapt (and you can see they’re starting to come to that conclusion). And so for them it begins. If they continue, they’ll get better - but I bet their attitudes toward training, technique preference, etc is completely different than someone who comes from a school within that system and has no fight training.
Big turn offs for me in traditional martial arts are when I look at the photos and see a disproportionate number of young children (to me it’s then kung fu day care), or the class photo looks like it could be the microsoft employee reunion pic.
I’d say this little dude is doing realistic fight training. I may have to take back what I said about kung fu day care if I found a place full kids like this.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1261993]If we look at the following 2 clips, it’s easy to see that “In TCMA, you train exactly the same way as you will fight”. Your thought?
//youtu.be/2PsyNCD1pQQ
[/QUOTE]
In Ba Ji, this move is grouped in knee methods or xi fa.
It is used as an example of eating the opponent’s root and uprooting him,
chi gen ba gen
Position or stepping in is the reason you are at advantage.
The practice is actually that two students trying to step in and out the positions to do the move.
The rope is a good way to practice too.
We may also use a staff.
[QUOTE=SPJ;1262069]In ba ji small frame routine/form
it is called kneeling or gui xi
at 1.08
[/QUOTE]
There is no way that pajama wearing xing yi/shaolin form rio off can wrestle. Do not believe it at all.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1262037]I’m either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don’t do enough fight training.
This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.
//youtu.be/BUqEvvtYSa8
[/QUOTE]
I agree, mightyb.
Tcma has little fivht training. Shuai jiao is not typical “traditional” martial arts training. SJ training is typical only if you did sj. Many people today look at sh and san da and try to say it came from their system of that they do it but that is not the case.
forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don’t know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a “single leg” ? Don’t see it if you were. From what I’ve seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I’m not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.
Just thought I’d ad this to show the similarities between Judo and Shuai Jiao. This is an inside leg trip, but the set up to YKW’s video is very similar.
Notice how they spend their time drilling the move vs an opponent, and then make it work “live” through practice. That’s fight training.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1262102]forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don’t know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a “single leg” ? Don’t see it if you were. From what I’ve seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I’m not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.[/QUOTE]
I watched SPJ’s form and I say it looks great. The guy’s demonstrating the attributes that are needed in fighting, he’s displaying great power and spirit… but that’s where it ends for most using that backwards pattern based teaching strategy. People get to the point where they mastered the form and can make it and themselves look terrifying, but that shouldn’t be confused with fighting prowess (not saying the guy in the form can’t fight because I don’t know him, I’m just using the form as a general example because it looks perfect). I say these things because, in a fight, I doubt most practitioners of that style could use even a tenth of the moves that are demonstrated in that form regardless of their ability to display it as a pattern in a terrifying way.
For example, the 1:08 mark which was highlighted as the same move as the SJ clip. Look at his foot placement, his bodyweight distribution and the force of momentum he’s doing in the form, and then look at YKW’s second clip where the person is using the belt for solo practice. See a difference? Exactly, that’s what happens when you drill a move with the intention of using it and you don’t care about how pretty you look while doing it.
I think it would be better to learn just one form, break it down to it’s individual techniques, and drill those until you can use them live. That to me would be fight training. Then to grow as a martial artist, you’d spar to develop and ad techniques. Maybe you’d learn new forms over time… but the number of forms becomes less important than the ability to execute the techniques that are demonstrated in the patterns as an indicator of mastery of the system.
Like I’ve said many times in different posts - can you really claim to be a master of something like praying mantis if you can’t do its most underlying principle techniques (like the diu sau) in a real fight or friendly sparring?
These guys do some serious fight training!!!
With all the tough talk I post - I don’t think I’d have the Cojones to train like these guys!
Meh, for that sort of thing I prefer Dog Brothers, no gear = not really going at it… one guy has the stick the other doesn’t, in real life he’d be beating that guy to death with full power shots…
Sayoc is 100% knife 100% of the time (well, that was what it WAS and was known for)… question is, are you going to walk around all the time with knives and always rely upon them? Some places it’s a crime with serious jail time you kow