I'd like to see . . .

[kj1]

@t_niehoff

Yes, I do submit that we need to change the “cultural fabric” of WCK. Times have changed, technology has changed, our knowledge about increasing physical performance has increased, fighting skills overall have improved greatly, and WCK to be viable needs to keep up with those changes.

Why does Wing Chun “need” anything? Wing Chun isn’t a person or even an entity.

If you don’t feel Wing Chun meets today’s needs (or more specifically, your needs) doesn’t it make more sense to change what you do instead of launching a crusade to change Wing Chun or virtually everyone else? Why not focus on and practice something “proven” and “modern” instead, like the ever praised MMA or BJJ? Why does “Wing Chun” have to change to suit your or “today’s” needs? (Whoever “today” is …) Other than your personal preference and pride (in the art, ego, or both), or a power trip (e.g., the self-appointed “police”) I fail to understand the premises behind your conclusions.

Your arguments have (over the long haul, even if inadvertently) supported the notion that Wing Chun is not “needed” for anything, including elective fighting which is the only end (purpose) you’ve thus far proposed or acknowledged as legitimate or worthy.

Just as there are other options for self-defense, spiritual growth, exercise, fun, cultural enrichment, etc. ad infinitum, there are plenty of other options and avenues for sports or competitive fighting. Many of those other options are ready made or don’t require so much “changing”, of the art or the “culture.” And, according to many assessments here and elsewhere, better suited to the dedicated if isolated task of competitive fighting. From a “Wing Chunnish” perspective including directness, efficiency and energy conservation, or even just the perspective of being reasonable, utilizing another avenue appears far more appropriate to your stated needs and predilections. As above, and in keeping with your own line of argumentation, I propose that anyone interested in serious competitive MMA type fighting should undertake other art(s) or endeavor(s), just as so many of your ready advocates already, understandably, and reasonably do. All kidding aside, I largely agree with Knifefighter on this point.

Furthermore, given that your quarrel seems to be with TMA/TCMA more generally, and understanding it is quite likely that the quarrel itself is the major draw for you ;), why limit your prosecution to Wing Chun? If yours is truly an altruistic, if not rather ironic concern for your fellows, surely there are other martial arts and artists in dire straits at least as much if not more than the Wing Chun community. Again, if not an altruistic concern, then what other motivation other than personal preference, pride, or <gasp> your values (n4)?

So far, I have not seen any compelling reason or logic from you for practicing Wing Chun. At least none in light of your priorities, balances, ends, and arguments.

Given that Wing Chun doesn’t “need” us, and we don’t “need” Wing Chun (a point I can generally agree with), that pretty much narrows down what’s really behind all the fuss. The obvious conclusion is that if anything at all “needs” changing then, based on your own arguments, it is you.

I pose these questions rhetorically and in fun, and of course have no expectation that you will address them in lieu of your own interests. Or, you can take a shortcut (potshot) and simply imply once again how ignorant I and like minded others are.

Regards,

• kj

[Edmund]

I was doing that until I saw this:

“You don’t own me! Why can’t WC be about fairies, interpretive dance and rainbows?”

As for “sullen”, I think you got way more of that than me on this thread …

I simply disagree.
People who don’t value fighting skill aren’t doing WC. It’s part of the martial art.

I’m generally fairly reserved with my criticism but on this point I’m crossing the PC line.

[anerlich]

I simply disagree.
People who don’t value fighting skill aren’t doing WC. It’s part of the martial art.

I’m generally fairly reserved with my criticism but on this point I’m crossing the PC line.

I never said I didn’t value fighting skill. I said the validation of forum members, the VTAA, the VT Museum, or anyone else on the internet with an opinion as to the legitimacy of what my academy does, means far less than my own judgement and that of my training buds and fellow academy members, as well as the people we deal with in the physical world, does.

Why would the opinion of a bunch of people in the US, other Australian States, or anywhere else, that I am highly unlikely to ever meet, give me any cause for concern, or for comfort? Why am I bound to meet any standards they might set, and vice versa?

The prospective student doesn’t care about WC, the style. He cares about whether the individual academy he is considering attending is going to help him meet his goals. They won’t give a rat’s for lineage, let alone certification from the KFO Wing Chun Police.

This whole discussion will change nothing. We might as well all be robots undergoing the Turing test for all the possible change anything discussed on this forum will make regarding “Wing Chun standards”. If you want to improve WC go to your academy and train. That’s something you have control over. This forum is the wrong location and the wrong medium. Nothing will change here.

You say you’re disagreeing with me, but I can’t see what about

As for the PC line, I don’t give a flying **** about any of that ****.

If yours is truly an altruistic, if not rather ironic concern for your fellows

Perhaps the words “patronising” and “condescending” might also fit? As might the phrase “repeatedly rammed down the throat with sledgehammer finesse”?

[Edmund]

@anerlich

“I simply disagree.
People who don’t value fighting skill aren’t doing WC. It’s part of the martial art.”

I never said I didn’t value fighting skill.

I was explaining my view. That line wasn’t directed at you.

I disagree that everyone’s values are equal and good.
Some of the values I disagree with and expressed my criticism of them.

Why would the opinion of a bunch of people in the US, other Australian States, or anywhere else, that I am highly unlikely to ever meet, give me any cause for concern, or for comfort? Why am I bound to meet any standards they might set, and vice versa?

If you don’t care what other people’s values are then simply don’t criticize them.

You aren’t bound by anyone else’s standards. No one is. But I think no one is above being criticized also which is what I’m doing.

They can handle it. It’s not like I’m kicking their door down and harrassing them.

As for the PC line, I don’t give a flying **** about any of that ****.
..
..
..
Perhaps the words “patronising” and “condescending” might also fit? As might the phrase “repeatedly rammed down the throat with sledgehammer finesse”?

Well if you don’t care about being PC and you don’t care what others think, you shouldn’t mind if I call a few WC fruit loops a bunch of fairies.

I criticized a few ideas that I think are completely wrong. If it seemed strong then good because I hate the idea of WC with no fighting skills. But now you act like I’m trying to personally police everyone to my standards (as if).

Screw them if they can’t argue my point. They don’t need defending.