I’m not sure I take your point as one phrase does not make an argument.
I agree that people have different values however some things are inherently lesser in value to everyone.
(sigh) I see an endless argument thread coming for no reason again.
Let me state it in this way:
Surely fighting skills have some value to WC practitioners.
Then it would be valuable to have means to measure those skills so WC practitioners can improve them.
I definitely think it would give WC people an avenue that they don’t really have at the moment. By taking some ownership of the rules/format, they get a chance to address all the issues and problems that WC people have. Things like safety, possible injury, equipment and allowable techniques were mentioned and addressed in that thread.
I think it will take a combination of:
Having the attitude in WC that fighting skills are worth measuring.
Having a suitable available avenue/method to do it.
As of now, neither seems to exist.
It’s about time we start policing ourselves. As it stands now, anyone can claim to be a master or grandmaster, anyone can claim to be an authority on WCK, folks can make up history, etc.
Terence,
You left off the part that says and anyone can claim to know absolutely what Wing Chun is for. …and once again the readers of this forum are left to ponder who is this WE .
“We” means each of us. The BS only keeps going – and growing – because we let it. It’s easy to get the BS out of our WCK lives, if we really want to. But I’m afraid that most do not. They want the BS because it feeds into their fantasies, their role-playing, their egos, etc. And the grandmasters, the masters, the sifu want it because it keeps their rice bowl full.
Don’t be concerned with repuations or stories or these sorts of things – be concerned with developing your own skill.
Sounds good.
WCK is about fighting plan and simple, but that is not to say that you cant practice this art for other benifits. T_niehoff wrote (paraphrasing here) that he would like to not see people bowing to each other, no theory, religion(dont see to much religion in WC). Even removing the titles of GM or sifu? Real fighting demos? Demos are the only way to share with an audience with out anyone getting hurt. Do you prepose that on the next demo the sifu picks a fight with a stranger to prove a tech? I think we would see alot of sifus in jail!
You want to basically change the cultural fabric that makes up this art. Unfortunatly to some, WC is chinese art and us americans are just going to half to put up with some cultural differences here. Every martial art has these aspects in it, its life not to much you can do about it.
Some people just want to fight and thats it. But if you strip WC of all the forms, drills, chi sao etc, then what are you left with? How can you teach/learn WC without these fundamental aspects? Just fight? Ridiculous! WC will whiter away and the quality of practicioners will fade to black.
Fighting is the ultimate challange/proof of your true ability but you will never be able to fight proficiently if you don’t properly train in the drills, chi sao, and forms to get there! PEOPLE- these things are there for a reason! Stop trying to reinvent the wheel! It is not broke, so stop trying to fix it.
There is a lot of points that I disagree with when Victor writes but I will say that I totally support the idea of more sparring and perhaps more tourn. with WC. I live in FL and so far for this entire year 2005 there are no tournaments ANYWHERE! for kung fu that I have found. I have to go to CALI or NY to compete in a tournament. I dont even like tournaments but they are closer to fighting then sparring with your classmates! Its good to feel the energy of a skilled stranger then constantly training with your class and is a great way to test your true ability (for the most part). Not the end all training method but a VERY good way to test yourself and trim through the BS. The worst thing you can do is not test yourself and assume that you can beat someone!
ADD
I agree that fighting, sparring, etc is a very good tool to use for training, but however its not absolutly needed. I know a guy who spars, but has only gotten into one fight in his ENTIRE life, and he is a very good martial artist and he won that fight. The fight was actually against another MAist, it was over something stupid I assume, I never actually saw the fight. I haven’t been in a one on one fight since highschool. All the fights I have gotten myself into over these last years have been multiple opponet vs multiple opponet, and its almost always involved with someone or all of us being drunk 
What can I say I am in my mid 20s. To be honest with you wing chun basic helped and nothing else really mattered in my fighting experience. I use very BASIC techniques. Just punches kicks and pak saos. Remaining calm was probably the best thing you can do in a fight.
However, this thread seems to be way over yang. I feel that you guys are telling the world IT HAS TO BE your way or it doesn’t work. While I agree that continous sparring at all ranges of combat helps your game out indeed, I also digress that its not the only way to train and the world does not need to do what I do.
I think if we are going to promote wing chun in a positive manner we need to change some of our mannerisms here. Approach things in a more open and considerate way. Wing chun will probably never be standardized due to all the different lineages and people are preserving them for how they are.
Fighting is not absolutely needed to be good. I know people who barely spar and focus more on training and refining, sparring is a very small part of their training. Their skill is still great because they train hard, harder than most people perhaps. They train 4 to 8 hours a day sometimes. If you add up all their hours per a week and divide it up into training categories, sparring would be near the bottom of their training. I do agree that sparring and fighting can help you in other ways, and it lets you know for strengths and weaknesses.
So, what I would like to see, is not everyone coming out and telling what it has to be. I used to get kinda mad like you Terrence when I would read a wing chun article in a magazine that was utter crap, and talked about secret hidden techniques blah blah blah. Read the Yip Man quote in my sig, there are NO SECRET OR UNSTOPPABLE MANUEVERS! Now, it doesn’t bother me, I just train what I do and I now cross train and learn other stuff. I went to a weekend long ground fighting jiu jitsu seminar a few weeks ago and learned a ton on ground fighting. I just look to expand my knowledge and let the other people do what they want. It doesn’t effect me, I effect me.
Well I can agree that the majority will never get into a street fight, so if you do not spar or full contact when do you get to use these skills that you trained so hard for and all the money you spent, like buying a new car just to wax it and never drive and say (man this car handles great fastest car ever but never drove it) what a waste. IRON SHARPEN IRON LIKE MAN SHARPENS MAN
ADD,
Yes, I do submit that we need to change the “cultural fabric” of WCK. Times have changed, technology has changed, our knowledge about increasing physical performance has increased, fighting skills overall have improved greatly, and WCK to be viable needs to keep up with those changes. Cornish wrestling may have been “da bomb” in 18th century Cornwall, but it’s no longer the 18th century and we’re not stuck in Cornwall. Nor is it the 1850s and we’re not stuck on the Red Boats (nor is it the 1600s and we’re not stuck in the Shaolin Temple). It’s simple: if you want to be a fighter (develop significant fighting skill), you need to train like a fighter. Regardless of whether your fighting method originates in China or Japan or Brazil or Thailand or Europe. If you don’t train like a fighter, you’ll never develop any significant fighting (WCK) skill. Period.
The “culture” of most TCMAs, including WCK, is a fantasy-based culture. The TCMAs basically sell fantasy, role-playing, etc. This culture doesn’t foster the development of good fighters. It is the antithesis of what fosters good fighters. And so when you see folks focusing on that stuff, it only means they’re not focusing on the things that will help them develop into good fighters.
I’ve never suggested that we strip WCK of the forms, drills, etc. Of course you need them – no one would suggest that you strip boxing of shadow boxing, skipping rope, hitting the heavy bag, hitting the focus mitts, etc. either. But doing the forms, drills, chi sao will never by itself develop good WCK/fighting skills. Never. That is prep work. Fighting skills come from fighting. All fighters recognize this and all fighters fight as part of their training. Those who don’t fight as part of their training,simply never develop significant skill. So I’m simply saying that if you want to develop WCK fighting skill in today’s world (and skill is relative; what was good by standards 200 years ago isn’t good today), you need to train like a fighter. That model already exists. You’re right, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
Again I agree with what Gangsterfist has to say here. Sparring will help, and at some point it will be needed to be implemented in one’s training to “Test” (and that is what it is, otherwise if you claim you are fighting each week in the kwoon to the death that is BS) one’s skills under pressure similar to that of a actual physical confrontation on the street (where it really matters, regardless of how skilled the NHB fighters are, and they are skilled indeed and I respect that, streetfights are more stressful due to the unpredictable nature and the fact that they usually end up in a unfair advantage for the other guy when his buds step in to help out, you vs. 4 guys with no ref).
Concerning fantasy fu and other unsubstantiated claims, if people out there are doing such things or promoting such things, then shame on them. In our kwoon we make no such claims to prospective students entering the kwoon to learn what we teach. Just yesterday I had a prospect in the school, he had a couple of years of experience in another style and I was relating some WC history to him. During the conversation I said to him that IMO I believe WC is the most effective system available today, but this does not mean you will be “Unbeatable” or the “Deadliest” man alive if you learn our system, just that it can allow you to be your most effective when you need it the most. I myself have no Illusions of Grandeur, as know I am not unbeatable or invincible, as know one is, William Cheung, Emin Boztepe or Gary Lam all have weaknesses and can “Slip on the banana peel” as Victor P mentioned in another thread. But all these people, and many others, have high quality skills which translates to others that want to attack them physically as a HUGE BARRIER. The larger the barrier is the harder it is for them to complete their task, which is to hurt you. WC provides a barrier to those that want to do such things to others, and depending on which WC one learns and who they learn it from, and also how intensely one trains to obtain such skills, will determine how large that barrier will be for them.
James
It’s about time we start policing ourselves.
“Ourselves” being the operative word.
My academy, and I personally, are extremely concerned with our own standards and abilities, and that the claims of what we offer to prospective students can be backed up, both within our own circle and by other martial artists who we work with or compete against.
It’s not our business to tell anyone else who does Wing Chun how to behave or what to aspire to. To be blunt, we have little to do with other WC organisations and have no interest in how they are perceived, only in what we are doing. The brilliance or naffness of other WC people out there concerns us not in the slightest. We wouldn’t ride on anyone else’s coat tails even if that might benefit us reputation wise or financially.
You guys are on your own. 
We believe the same as Anerlich and his organization, here in Canada. What happens in other WC clans has no bearing on us or what we do or teach. Good post Andrew.
James
sihing
I agree, I need to watch nothing more than my own front yard!
The phrase was “police ourselves” not “make up any sort of art you like for yourselves”.
Once again it falls down to some WC people wanting their right to their bizarre perspective as if all views are equally valid.
“You don’t own me! Why can’t WC be about fairies, interpretive dance and rainbows?”
It’s not about telling people how to behave.
It’s about sharing common goals and values. (Kinda laughable since it seems that we don’t.)
That point has already been made and laughed at. Welcome to ridicule.
Obviously the BS has already taken over in some cases.
It’s about sharing common goals and values.
Maybe we have some, but realistically we are never going to get any closer than this forum to see whether that is true or not. This is an internet forum, mainly used to waste time at work. Only a fool would take seriously anything anyone said here.
Who adjudicates? The VTAA? The VT Museum? You? None of the above for me, thanks.
“You don’t own me! Why can’t WC be about fairies, interpretive dance and rainbows?”
Whatever floats your boat.
The phrase was “police ourselves”
Indeed it was. so go do that and stop your whining.
I think I’d rather take everyone’s post a little seriously where it’s warrented rather than just playing a sullen devil’s advocate and be dismissive because it’s only the internet.
I was doing that until I saw this:
“You don’t own me! Why can’t WC be about fairies, interpretive dance and rainbows?”
As for “sullen”, I think you got way more of that than me on this thread …