Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Question for Hung Fut people…

It seems like there is a strong relationship between Wong Fei Hung’s Hung Ga and Hung Fut, visible in the forms and movements, as well as many of the names. The “hung” of Hung Fut is apparently from Hung Hei Goon and not of Hung Ga founded by Luk Ah Choi. Modern Hung Ga didnt take the current shape until it was modified by Wong Fei Hung, prior to that it was a short fist high stance style similar to Bak Mei or SPM. From that I assume there was a connection post Wong Fei Hung to Hung Ga. Can any Hung Fut people shed some light on this?

This is a clip of original Hung Ga, which looks nothing like modern Hung Ga nor Hung Fut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

And what is the Fut Ga source of the system? Many styles share that name so instead of assuming Id rather get a proper source.

2

i see what your saying, I can see some simil. but somethings lacking as well.

Iron wire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM&feature=related

3

The big 5 of the south: Choy / Li / Fhat / Hung / Mok

“Hung” is more than Hung Gar.

I learned a black tiger style. It is a “Hung” style. It is not Hung Gar. It is considered Sil Lum or Shaolin but is Hung.

confused yet? lol It gets worse!

In Northern Kung Fu there are 5 main families as well. One of them is “HONG”.

lol.

Anyway, there’s lots of tidbits like this to be found in tcma.

4

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027575]The big 5 of the south: Choy / Li / Fhat / Hung / Mok[/QUOTE]I’ve heard that it is Hung / Lau / Choy / Li / Mok.

5

[QUOTE=CFT;1027581]I’ve heard that it is Hung / Lau / Choy / Li / Mok.[/QUOTE]

Lau was absorbed into Hung Gar. I don’t think it is a main style because of that.

Who knows though, so many people have so many different spins and takes on 5 tigers, 10 tigers, 5 elders, 5 crane families, shaolin 5 animals, 3 internal arts, and so on and so forth.

In all honesty, I think all that stuff takes a back seat in a big way to actual martial arts training in context to the here and now. A huge chunk of it really belongs historically to Shaolin.

I like the divisions of Military/ Medical / Religious myself. :slight_smile:

6

Im not comparing the two styles or questioning which “Hung” this style originates from, Im saying that there is influence from Hung Ga post Wong Fei Hung. Hung Fut has had 8 generations up to the elders today, so just wondering who or when did that cross over occur?

Heres a form called Sup Ji Kau Da where you can see alot of Hung Ga influence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01P7ii2etRw

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027586]Lau was absorbed into Hung Gar. I don’t think it is a main style because of that.[/QUOTE]

No it wasn’t. The Lau Ga that is found in the Hung Ga system has nothing to do with the original Lau Ga. One form called “lau ga keun” is actually the first form of the Mok Ga system, and one form called “lau ga gwun” is actually a southern mantis form learned from Lau Sui. Lau Ga is a main style but rare indeed!

8

[QUOTE=soulfist;1027589]No it wasn’t. The Lau Ga that is found in the Hung Ga system has nothing to do with the original Lau Ga. One form called “lau ga keun” is actually the first form of the Mok Ga system, and one form called “lau ga gwun” is actually a southern mantis form learned from Lau Sui. Lau Ga is a main style but rare indeed![/QUOTE]

see what i mean? lol

This is why those divisions are not important.
They are not properly codified.

9

yeah, my understanding that in terms of familial appellation, the five are Hung, Choih, Mok, Lei and Lau - Faat is Cantonese for Buddha, and Faat Ga is a distinct style, but it’s not named for a given family; at least that’s what I understand, i could b wrong

10

The 5 Southern styles are from 5 disciples of Ji Sin of Fujian Shaolin. They are always listed as Hung, Lau, Choi, Lei, and Mok.

Faat means technique. Fut is a common name that is often used with styles from Fujian Shaolin. Choi Lei Fut was originally called Fut Ga Jing Jung, Lama Pai once was called Fut Ga too, Hung Fut’s Fut referred simply to the kung fu of Fujian Shaolin and not a style at all. Southern Fut Ga also uses that name Fut, but changed later to be called Seh Ying Diu Sau. The Green Grass Monk from 9 Lotus Shaolin also in Fujian taught his system called Fut Ga Jeung… I know of at lease 5 others who use Fut as well but its often the same story of referring to the Buddhist origins of Shaolin.

Ga doesnt mean family in the sense of kung fu, it is a southern term that means style, where as northern says Mun. Many also say Gaau that is now used in all religious sects in Chinese. Paai is also commonly interchangable… but all mean the same.

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[QUOTE=soulfist;1027604]Faat means technique. Fut is a common name that is often used with styles from Fujian Shaolin. Choi Lei Fut was originally called Fut Ga Jing Jung, Lama Pai once was called Fut Ga too, Hung Fut’s Fut referred simply to the kung fu of Fujian Shaolin and not a style at all. Southern Fut Ga also uses that name Fut, but changed later to be called Seh Ying Diu Sau. The Green Grass Monk from 9 Lotus Shaolin also in Fujian taught his system called Fut Ga Jeung… I know of at lease 5 others who use Fut as well but its often the same story of referring to the Buddhist origins of Shaolin.[/QUOTE]
yes, “technique / method” is indeed transliterated as “faat” (in Yale system); “Buddha” is transliterated as “faht” (so, my mistake using “faat”, above); AFAIK, it is the character used in both CLF and HF, at least in their current incarnations;

[QUOTE=soulfist;1027604]Ga doesnt mean family in the sense of kung fu, it is a southern term that means style, where as northern says Mun. Many also say Gaau that is now used in all religious sects in Chinese. Paai is also commonly interchangable… but all mean the same.[/QUOTE]
AFAIK, “ga”, “muhn” and “paai” are all used to denote martial systems in “the south”, also “gaau”, “kyuhn” and “hohk” as well - seems to be somewhat context dependent…

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I’ve never really asked much about it. But the resemblances and similarities do seem striking sometime. Hung Fut 6th gen sifu Hung Jiu Shing was a contemporary of Wong Fei Hung and I think both lived in Canton for a spell during the same time, but I’ve never heard my sifu state any stories of them being friends, although I’ve never heard him say anything to the contrary either.
I don’t think though that Bok Mo Jiu was the first to really incorporate the longer arm techniques into Hung Fut that look like they are from the Hung Ga side of the style. I suspect the influence came from a source prior to Wong Fei Hung.

13

[QUOTE=soulfist;1027559]Question for Hung Fut people…

It seems like there is a strong relationship between Wong Fei Hung’s Hung Ga and Hung Fut, visible in the forms and movements, as well as many of the names. The “hung” of Hung Fut is apparently from Hung Hei Goon and not of Hung Ga founded by Luk Ah Choi. Modern Hung Ga didnt take the current shape until it was modified by Wong Fei Hung, prior to that it was a short fist high stance style similar to Bak Mei or SPM. From that I assume there was a connection post Wong Fei Hung to Hung Ga. Can any Hung Fut people shed some light on this?

This is a clip of original Hung Ga, which looks nothing like modern Hung Ga nor Hung Fut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

And what is the Fut Ga source of the system? Many styles share that name so instead of assuming Id rather get a proper source.[/QUOTE]

What makes you think that is “original” Hung Ga?

If there is such a thing.

Southern MA are an bed of “inbreeding” of the various MA of the area, they all borrowed from each other to one degree or another.

14

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1027665]What makes you think that is “original” Hung Ga?

If there is such a thing.[/QUOTE]
Whatever! The point isnt what original Hung Ga is! If you read what I wrote then youll see Im referring to pre versus post Wong Fei Hung Hung Ga in relation to Hung Fut. I just tried to give an example of pre WFH Hung Ga so that some can see what Im talking about, sorry for labeling it original.

Thanks brothernumber9, I know Baak Mou Jiu was the major figure in Hung Fut but the system was well underway by his time I think. Maybe there is something there though.

15

[QUOTE=soulfist;1027682]Whatever! The point isnt what original Hung Ga is! If you read what I wrote then youll see Im referring to pre versus post Wong Fei Hung Hung Ga in relation to Hung Fut. I just tried to give an example of pre WFH Hung Ga so that some can see what Im talking about, sorry for labeling it original.

Thanks brothernumber9, I know Baak Mou Jiu was the major figure in Hung Fut but the system was well underway by his time I think. Maybe there is something there though.[/QUOTE]

Don’t get your undies in a bunch dude, it was just a question.
For all we know it may will be, just curious as to why YOU labeled it such.

16

Five Family Style

The Five Family Style is Choy Li Fut Mok Hung. The Hung part has the animals - Snake, Tiger, Dragon, Leopard and Crane. The Fut are Buddhist palm forms. Mok is kicking. Our Tiger-Crane form is similar to the WFH version but the sequence is different and some of the moves done differently.

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[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1027597]yeah, my understanding that in terms of familial appellation, the five are Hung, Choih, Mok, Lei and Lau - Faat is Cantonese for Buddha, and Faat Ga is a distinct style, but it’s not named for a given family; at least that’s what I understand, i could b wrong[/QUOTE]

I don’t think they are necessarily “wrong”. I just think there’s a lot of stories.

Even the existence of Ji sin sim see is debateable as is the existence of an actual brick and mortar southern shaolin temple.

I mean, there is now, because they built one. lol But other than legend (and there is a lot of legend in all kung fu stories) there’s not any hardcore evidence fo there being one.

yeah, they found a temple that looked to have been destroyed close to the site of where they have the new construction, but there really isn’t anything saying that it is shaolin temple.

I think that we have this tendency to look at things as if they sprang forth fully formed. When in fact…nothing does this.

Hung Gar as a for instance was gradually formed into what it is today. Lam Sai Wing was probably the last guy to make the style uniform in those lineages, which are the big ones really.

Choy Li Fut schools can have a few forms to over a hundred that define their curriculums and lineages.

wing chun…well, what can we say about that. 3 forms 2 weapons, dummy work and some drills and they still argue about it incessantly! lol

Mok Gar… Almost if not already extinct except for pieces.
Li Gar…like Mok Gar (some in CLF?)
Lau Gar… A set in Hung Kuen
Hung Gar…alive and well it seems
Choy (extant as CLF?)

Fut Gar…Still quite happening

For the northern styles there is even less

Cha..still around and modified into wushu as well
Hua… a little around and also modified into wushu
Hong… I believe this is also Bak Sil Lum (correct me if I’m wrong bsl people)
Pao…?
Fa…?

18

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027743]I don’t think they are necessarily “wrong”. I just think there’s a lot of stories. etc.[/QUOTE]
yep; gotta take it all w/a grain of salt;

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027743]I think that we have this tendency to look at things as if they sprang forth fully formed. When in fact…nothing does this.[/QUOTE]
well, I was created ex nihilo, but that’s a special case…

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027743]Mok Gar… Almost if not already extinct except for pieces.[/QUOTE]
Chan Tai San taught a number of sets to a few people, I think Parella has some on tape; he also taught a set he called Hung Mok which was pretty neat, at least one guy I know has it;

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1027743]Choy (extant as CLF?)[/QUOTE]
I learned a few “village Hung” sets from CTS, as did Ross; CTS once wrote out on one piece of paper “hung tao choih mei”, which I know Jow Ga also uses, but that may b an indicator of some Choy stuff mixed in???

19

Hmmm,

I trained a bit of Hung Fut and also sampled some Fut Gar. The Fut Gar I sampled was said to be Buddha palm and there was a lot of palm strikes involved. I did see a relation to the Hung Fut I had learned. With that being said Hak Fu Mun shares a couple of Hung Fut forms also. I know Grandmaster Wong Cheung studied with Baak Mou Jiu but, I don’t know if that’s where the Hung Fut came from…:confused:

20

I think how some of these styles developed within a specific locale may have something to do with some of the similiarities that are seen between some of the “southern” short/long hand styles. Particularly those out of HK and Toisan and New Territories. In my opinion there seems to be a commonality in the kind of posture and flair that such systems like Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, and a few others have that share a kind of intangible thread with each other, but are stylisticly discernable from the way they are played as they were individually developed elsewhere.